Second Front Feedback

[klesh]

I'm glads to see I'm not the only one having trouble with this one...

I'm on my second go around. I realized you aren't supposed to fool with the units being produced in England unless you want to build POW's! (Wonder what they are for?) Also kinda figured out how to spot those pesky sea mines...
I thin I'm on turn 8, but have only captured 5 objectives. The armor is rolling onto the beaches, but the breakout will be tough. I really want to pillage some of that wire to make a nice little beach for tanning I've started to build the Mullberry at Avaranches...hope that helps to keep the supply up.
When can I let thos ebombers rip? They are just being polished up by the flyboys...they need to see some action.
I find the Supply and Demand window doesn't always display the proper info.
MGE really makes this one too hard. I'm glad I'm getting FW in a few days.
The only error I've seen so far is a very small typing one... on the opening Operation Overloard window (the one with the buttons named for the beaches) the work "tank" comes out to be t
ank.
Too many spaces perhaps. Very small. Everything else looks A-OK.
Damn, this one looks nice Nemo. Real hard too. Excellent work.
I'll keep y'all posted.


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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
Großdeutschland!

[Captain Nemo]

Field Marshal:
Five objectives in your first try is quite good... especially if you can get about 2 more by the end of D-Day you will actually have a chance of getting past the first Day. (Because reinforcements come in proportion to the objectives achieved, ie less objectives, less chances of doing well in part 2 and so forth...)

There is a massive change at the first file switch (About turn 11). The bombers become active, some movements change significantly, and some units are swapped. And make sure your LCVPs are empty or near the coast by then because I disband them by lowering their movement and making them Triremes. Not a trick to fool players but just a way to get rid of them since I need the slot for other great stuff and Landing Crafts were not what was used after D-Day.

I didn't understand the "supply window" question?
Most of the units stats are not visible because the Germans can't build their units either. I will probably just create a document for the readme with the stats.

The barbwire will actually be cleared from a few beach areas via events in part II... and you get the Mulberry Harbors A & B if you captured the right objectives.

[Captain Nemo]

Oh, the German POWs... Well even if you don't allow the human player to build ANY units the game will default to one of the first unit slots when you capture an enemy city. At first I was getting the option to build German defensive units or Infantry when I captured French cities, so I had to make a useless unit that wouldn't be worth building... I ended up using it for a German event around the battle for Falaise...But that's about 70 turns away.

[Cal]

Ok, third try this time, and I'm doing quite well.

I kept all my battleships and LVT tranports out of range, no "Morale Boosting" sea victory for the germans this time! But a lot of my cruisers and destroyers were torn apart by the costal cannons... I'd end up destroying the cannons when there were no more shells left inside, still need to think of a way to stop that...

I've planned my landing strategies nicely, but bombing the germans is another story... how can you bomb a certain target when it takes two turns to get there and the units keep moving? Next time I'll try setting it up so a few planes attack every turn rather than all at once.

Taking a city seems to go like this...

1. Save game.
2. Attack city with whatever offensive unit available.
3. If bunker or costal cannon is in city, attack with flamethrower unit.
4. If none available, call in airstrike.
5. If none available, throw what units you have at it and see if it holds.
6. if it does, reload and try a different city..

I captured 4 objectives this time, but only managed to hold 2, the luftwaffe showed up out of nowhere to force me out and my planes were too busy refueling to stop it.

Btw, Captain Nemo, when the freights are built, should we only build ones to hold fuel, or are other things like "supplies" good too?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

[Stefu]

Coo-ee! Good thing testweek was (almost) over, since I am now addicted!

Anyway, after few tries, I'm now in turn 3. I used my fighters and destroyers mainly clearing away those ¤#%&# Beach Mines (What I want to know is what kind of perverted beach mine attacks ship? Killer beach mine from Black Lagoon? Luckily you can spot the beach mines if you have good eyes.), but Germans still took horrible toll with those shells and few remaining %¤#&/%& Beach Mines. Anyway, I'm just starting to hit the beaches, mainly with Rangers and Commandos that I've used to get as many German units from beach as possible so my Infantries can safely enter.

My gliders got blown away, but Commandos are safely in Hedgerows and killing Germans that venture too close to them. (That's the intended use, right? Right?), same as those Airborne infantries. One of them managed to blow up German bunker and kill 7 units in there - that was sweet.

Anyway, to suggestions. I think that Airforce should, in start, have same map as Infantry does in start - it's useful to know where to go, exactly. Big map of Normandy as attached file would be useful, with all those beaches clearly pointed in it (I mean, mercy! How am I supposed to remember that there's some beach you're supposed to take between Frenchyville 1 and Frenchyville 2?) Readme should, of course, be larger, and including all, and I mean ALL, units in Civilopedia is a must. And putting some explanatory text in with wonders would be a nice touch as well.

Anyway, great scen, and I am eagerly awaiting to get to liberate Northern France when I get home. What would your next scen be about? I suggested Finland , but I'd also like you taking over Alex's project of Russian Civil War, and some kind of scenatio about last years of Nazi Germany, when war had already started turning bad for Germany. That'd be HARD scenario!

[Xin Yu]

Again tested the gliders a little bit. They are on an airbase square (in ocean terrain!) 6 squares away from shore (which is within range of a shell) at the beginning, so if you don't move them, you may get blown up. There is a small city to the southwest which is very easy to occupy (only one infantry inside). Although it is in the dark area, your paradrop icon will show the position of the city. Actually you can also occupy another city there but concentrate your force in one is better (you may scare away enemy planes and hold the city without any losses).

The following part may not work:

The second turn you can put your planes in front of the ocean airbase square to protect it, and paradrop your gliders back (the gliders can only set off from cities and airbases), then move battle engineers to there. The third turn you can first use planes to block counter attack (including shells), then paradrop engineers to occupy a city. Always remember to move the gliders into the occupied city so it can be used later. From then on, either you paradrop back and force to get more units to the city, or you paradrop directly from the city to other cities with engineers. Remember: don't move the gliders or hit space while they are on the ocean airbase square, since they may get lost in the sea (all units on the same square will be lost as well).

Of course, your planes can use the ocean airbase square while the gliders are out so they don't need to come back to England! (oops, not tested, hope it will not work, or Nemo will certainly remove the gliders and the airbase).

Edit: a simple change terrain event maybe able to get rid of the airbase. I haven't played deep into the game so I don't know if captain Nemo has already done that. Anyway, I need to think of another way.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited October 03, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

*rubs tired eyes*

I didn't get any sleep last night, and I almost missed the bus....

You are one of the greatest (if not the greatest)scenario designers, Nemo....

Right now, after I post, I'm going to get some sleep....

I had to restart five or six times, can't remember much now.

[Xin Yu]

Battleships have the submarine flag for them to carry shells, however it seems that the flag makes them weak. In fact, battleships are as strong as cruisers, although the former's statistics are much higher.

Now, there is this German unit which also has the submarine flag...

[Captain Nemo]

Xin Yu:
You are really smart at this, some of the things you figured out right away took me months...
BTW I remove the airbase on turn 2 via events... No luck there. I really tried to prevent YOU from misusing the gliders. One of my testplayers said "Be careful with those gliders, Xin Yu is sure to find a way to misuse them"...
The battleships lose their sub-flag in part 2 since by then most of the shells are gone (Better use them up before then) and you may want to use them to blow up German tanks on the coastal highways.

Cal:
Regarding the Supply convoys I used them exclusively to resupply the armor with gasoline. By part 5 or 6 there should be enough motorized units in France that you will need all the gasoline you can build.
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited October 03, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Thanks Nemo. One question: shall I go for techs? I can get one tech per turn, just don't want to waste the effort.

I'm planning two things:
First, I'll move all supported units back to England so they don't cause unhappiness (my transports are lined up so I can still transport them to France in one turn), then use WLTKD to grow the population. The larger the population, the more fuel will be provided for each fuel supply truck, thus the more units you can support. If a city has not food specials you can send a food caravan to it thus the city will have one food surplus from the trade route. Before the units are back, I hire all but three of the citizens in each city as taxmen/scientists so that I can get a lot of money and one tech per turn. Another function of this 'move back to England' process is to free up some ships. I don't think the enemy shells will target my EMPTY transports. Which means I can safely transform some units to the shore by chain transportation. (I can also disband some units for this. Seems the US infantry and British infantry units are pretty useless. Better throw them to the strait than let them eat enemy shells).

Second, I'll form a 'trap' for the canon shells by putting a row of planes before a destroyer. The shells will not be able to reach the destroyer and will either be sitting in the air for me to pick up or crash. If it works, please add to your readme file that this is now allowed. BTW, there are two kinds of shells hosted by two types of cannons. Maybe some of my units can sustain the smaller shells, but I need to test. From previous experiences missile units in cities only attack navy targets unless you order them to move in the events.txt file. Now you have them out of the cities so I'm not sure under what condition they will not attack land units.

[Xin Yu]

Some other things:

DD tanks sometimes lost in the sea. Can I just move them for one square per turn (I can use Ctrl-N to finish the turn), or is it your intention to let them have a chance of being lost before landing?

I WILL abuse gliders as much as I can. I think I can use planes to clear some cities behind enemy lines (which are lightly defended) then use gliders to occupy them. This way my gliders can move to the west pretty fast (12 square paradrop distance). Eventually I hope they can be used to teleport my troops around.

As for the shells carried by battleships, I'll move them to newly occupied cities and use them for enemy armors. Tigers especially.

[Sten Sture]

LoL at Xin - I thought he would find stuff to create havoc...


Cpt Nemo - very well done. I am playing the Hot seat MGE version. (& Thanks for releasing a beta version that we can help tweak.) On that note I will agree that not having the Map surveyed at all for the Airforce was a bit of a pain. Having a non-hot seat version might be fun for multiplayers to split up the air and ground allies. I would like to play it with two PC's on a my LAN to get around the frustration of not being able to see the AI or my land troops. Some limitation on map sharing would be necessary to avoid perfect recon of course.

General strats - I ran thru the first 2 turns twice like the French at Agincourt. Opened the cities and tried to change production, attacked command posts w/ P51s, moved the gliders instead of paradropping, ran LSTs into mines without clearing a channel first, shelled from outside of range, blocked landing sites with planes, and wasted movement running into allied units. Don't do any of that stuff!!

Don't attack anything in a hedgerow! Paratroopers defending cross roads from a hedgerow create tough kill zones. Don't stack your beaches too much, which is easy to do if you clear a narrow lane for the LCVPs.

DDs have a small island to get next to on Utah Beach - use it!

Thunderbolts and Tornados are good fort killers, but run them out of movement exposing the map before delivering the goods, Mustangs and Hurricanes work on beach clearing and blocking coastal bombardment. Once LCVPs are empty use them for chaining from the LSTs or at least to block coastal shells - they are cheaper than your planes.

If you haven't memorized the unit stats yet, open up a copy of the rules.txt scroll down to the unit stats and then just click back and forth


Tons of fun Captain Nemo - this is awesome!

[Case]

Nemo, Second front is brilliant, and wonderfully hard. However, I've got some sugestions for any updates:

1. Merge the Allied Air-force with the Army - one of the Allies big advantages in Normandy was the high level of co-operation between the airforce and ground troops. The way you have it, the air force and army fight thier own wars, wiht the airforce being abable to conduct recon for the army, and the army unable to spot targets for the airforce. I also don't like loosing aircraft by them getting "trapped" by being unable to fly over allied troops. At minumum let the air force and army have negotiations so they can swap maps.
2. Make the coastal mines visable after they are blundered into! It's a major pain in the arse to loose a LCVP to a mine field which you had forgotten exhisted! I'm sure that allied naval commanders noted the location of minefields to prevent futher losses
3. Reveal the map, or at least the basics of the road grid - I'm sure General Eisenhower had a map of Normandy to help him
4. Are you sure about Marauders not being used on D-day? I've seen several pictures of Marauders in D-day stripes flying over the invasion fleet

Finally, does anyone have a good book on D-day to recomend? The only one I've read is 'The Longest Day', and that was lacking in detail (though perhaps I would have gotten more out of it if I wasn't reading it jet lagged to death in a hotel kitchen )

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

[MagyarCrusader]

I started over and this time found the difficulty level to be perfect. I'd rather have a challenging scenario than a walkover.

First turn, I used my gliders and commandos to take a fortress near Langune. My gliders were destroyed by shells after that. I was able to clear the beachmines with relatively few casualties. This time I haven't lost any LSTs (except 1 with 2 infantry in it last turn). I held most of my transports back, except in areas I knew were totally safe because I used destroyers and cruisers to clear the areas. This allowed my warships in the back to move closer, so the beachmines would attack them.

My airforce help clearing the beach mines since the first turn they can't reach land anyway. Then I used them to clear for safe landing zones, like a a fortress on the coast or fortresses near the cities. I would never attack stationary german units or cities with my airforce, and always tried to position them on roads to block enemy movement (this worked great).

Finally I was able to land my troops, most of which landed in Beach squares, sea cliffs or fortresses. I would never stack more than 2 units on a square (unless it was a fortress) and tried my best to avoid barbwire.

Right now it is at the end of turn six for my ground forces and I conquered about 9 cities. Hot spots were St. Laurent, Vierville s/Mer, Ouistreham, and especially Colleville. I was only able to conquer these cities this turn (except Vierville). Colleville was extremely bloody because I tried to land troops on the barbwire in front of the city, and every time I did this they were wasted. I was able to take the city by flanking it from Port-en-Bessin which I took earlier on. I used those mobile howitzer type units to do the job. I don't think it is possible for you to take Colleville in a frontal assault. I caputre St. Laurent in a frontal assault when I was able to land some artillery that survived a turn. After those 2 cities fell I rushed tanks and troop carriers over from Port-en-Bessin.

Around La Madeline I control the city and the 3 nearest fortresses. German units are swarming everywhere but I am able hold them at bay. However, I don't think I have enough units to push any farther, and German reinforcements in the area seem endless.

I found combat engineers and Crocodiles to be extremely usefull. Use only these units to clear stationary german units like the coastal batteries. Bazookas worked halfway decent against the machinegun nests.

Just about all my troops are ashore but I'm concerned about the message that declared there was a Panzer Division around Caen that hasn't seen combat yet.

So far I'd say the casualty ratio is around even.
I've lost:
18 British inf
23 Us Inf
7 Rangers
12 Commandos
7 Combat Engineers
20 airborne
3 Shermans
6 churchills
3 tank destroyers
18 LCVP
1 Cromwell
1 armored carrier
1 105 howitzer
1 typhoon
6 mustangs
3 spitfires
18 destroyers
7 cruisers
1 LST
3 Battleships
5 gliders
7 crocodiles
9 BAR
2 DD
9 Bazookas

I'm not really sure what else I can do for the next 4 turns, since I control most of the coastal cities, except Courseulles which I plan on attacking next turn. After that, I don't seem to have any reinforcements to push further inland.

[Sten Sture]

Maygar - which version are you playing, btw?

How did you only lose 2 DDs?!? I think I lost 80% of mine last try.