Lord of the Rings V4: Event.txt

[Sieve Too]

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who finds this scenario very difficult. Even Xin Yu is having problems! I'd like to be able to win without resorting to "diplomacy gymnastics."

Harlan: The readme.txt files say that the version at ACS is version 4 while St. Leo seems to have version 4.1. Is there a difference?

Also, readme.txt gives incorrect unit stats for almost every Mordor, Harad and Rhun unit. Specifically, it tends to claim that the bad guys have 1 FP when they really have 2 FP. I finally peeked in rules.txt after my attacking Knights lost for the 3rd time against Orcs on grass or plains. Sadly, this makes the Knight unit completely pointless. It can't defeat anything.

Since bad guys have FP of 2, I tend to attack them with vet Galleys, since this reduces the bad guys FP to 1 for the battle. This adds a more naval flavor to the scenario then I expected.

My usual problem in the scenario is one of time - there just isn't enough. You can't really do much offensively until Mordor runs out of units and money and until you've taken Barad Dur. Even then, most Mordor cities are in hills or mountains, meaning you need whatever heros you have left to defeat them. The isolated cities to the north on plains are hard to take because they each have a Dragon. By the time you do get to use the ring there isn't much time left. Given the vastness of Mordor, Harad and Rhun, even if you somehow managed to take two cities per turn, you'd still run out of time.

One more gripe (although there's probably not much that can be done about it): Nazgul can kill Gandalf too easily just by attacking whatever city he happens to land in. Regardless of who you have defending in the city, CivII always looks first for units with the "can attack other air units" flag when being attacked by air. What you get is that "Gandalf scrambles to defend " message. Even with x4 defense, Gandalf's D=1 leaves him toasted against Nazgul.

All that being said, this is the best scenario I've ever played and I've enjoyed more than any other!

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Glad that you are interested in the scenario.

You are right that you can only attack with your heros, eagles, and ents (ents can reach Isengard and several Mordor cities if carefully planned). The basic tactic is, therefore, to let the enemy attack you. I'm testing a tactic to use the dwarfs to build fortresses next to enemy cities so the enemy will attack you instead of defending the cities.

This is what I called 'camping strategy' (you camp every turn in hostile territory): Find a good defense position and use dwarfs (protected by Gollum if not enough moving points) to build a fortress, and wait for the enemy units to waste themselves. Moving ahead while building fortresses until you can build one beside an enemy city.

Still the dragon cities are tough. See if you can lure the dragons out and kill them when they are on grass or occupy the city while the dragon is out.

Edit: More strategy:
You can use settlers instead of dwarfs to build fortress when attack the southern enemy cities but settlers move slower and you need other units (Hobbits and Elvens) for defense. Gandalf can protect the settlers before they finish the fortresses.
If possible, always kill Trolls, Olog-Hais and Wolves before they can attack you.
Legolas has advantage against mumakil.
Instead of killing the Nazguls north of Hobbiton, you can trap them with your units (block their way back to the city). First turn use all available units (including one ranger), then substitute them with cheap ones. After the ranger is substuted, the Nazgul will (eventually) attack one of your units and crash (it will not reborn).
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 16, 2000).]

[Sieve Too]

Thanks for the help Xin Yu!

I'll have to try that Dwarf strategy. I usually use Gollum to protect Frodo and the Ring since they die too easily without protection. If you lose the Ring, you are completely screwed and you might as well quit (I do). One question: How many Dwarves do you use in your stack? Don't they get too damaged from Wainriders and Easterlings to attack the Rhun cities? Do you send Settlers to build up the Iron Hills due to the population loss when building Dwarves?

As to Settlers, I usually rush buy a few and send them all to cities that get attacked alot (Pelagir, Belfalas, etc) so that they can mine grass to forests. This is often enough to defeat attacking Orcs and it prevents all but the most nasty attackers from defeating more than one Pikeman before having to retreat/rest.

Do you need to cover every square around the Nazgul to get it to attack instead of just going around or just sitting there?

A chain of Longboats from Hobbiton to the south of Gondor? IIRC, Hobbiton is not that close to the ocean and Hobbits are pretty slow (m=1, all as roads) and cheap units are even slower (m=1). How many Longboats do you need? I'm not sure the same strategy would work with Dwarves since Mordor always seems to have a Dromund or two in the narrow river (The R. Sirion IIRC) to kill off your Longboats.

Ents and Eagles? Do Longboats also carry air units? I must have missed that. Ents could be used as blockers/killers to prevent Dromund from getting to your Longboats if they could refuel periodically on the Longboats.

I often have a problem with the Nazgul attacking Eagle's Eerie (builder of the Eagle unit) and attacking my Eagles in general. They get the air vs. Helo advantage and always win, regardless of terrain, vet status, fortified For the city, I usually leave Merry fortified there since he has double defense vs. Air.

In turn one, I send Gandalf to attack one of those fortified Orcs in the mountains between Rivendell and Eagle's Eerie. This accomplishes three things: 1) Gandalf takes a beating but almost always gets vet status. 2) Damaged Eagles have a quick path to Rivendell where the only Airport in the whole scenario is. 3) It opens a path to let me send Merry to Eagle's Eerie quickly. The bad news is that you tie up Gandalf for three turns right off the bat (attack, go back, rest) and Merry for a long time (until you destroy the Nazgul with the Ring) Sound like a good plan or am I wasting these valuable units?

Finally: Got any ideas on how to quicken the first death of Eomer and Eowyn?

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: I cannot answer all questions since the strategy is still in testing phase.

Dwarfs: 4 dwarfs should be enough if you don't use them to attack cities. You can use eagles to attack. Gollum can protect them if they need rest. Use one of them to occupy a city and back to full blood. I'm hoping that Rhun will use all units to attack and the defense will be pretty weak. After defeating Rhun you can use its cities as the base to provide settlers and units for Iron Hills to produce more dwarfs.

Gandalf should kill a Nazgul (the one southwest of Rivendale) on turn 1. If he loses he'll reborn and attack again. This is the Nazgul which will threaten Eagles Eerie. After defeating it the Eagles are safe. Then you use Gandalf to defeat Saruman, then come back to clear the way to the East and let him attack the forest Mordor cities.
(Edit: I don't want to use Gandalf for the Southern front since the Witch King is a threat to him).

Aragon should be able to defend Rivendale but you need to make him vet first (I'm not sure since I haven't tested it). Afterwards he can join Gandalf for the forest battles.
(Edit: Non-vet Aragon can defeat Nazgul. Aragon protected by Gollum will be very good in attacking Mordor cities early in the game).

Radagast can move to South and kill reborn Nazguls (Again not sure if it works). He can also kill the Mordor ships there.
(Edit: Radagast cannot attack air units. It's better to use it to escort the eagles to the Rhun lake. Once the eagles gets there nobody can attack them. Later Radagast can be sent to the South to protect the troops attacking Harad).

It takes 3 turns for the Hobbits to get to a coastal city, then they'll arrive in the front instantly. You have to build a city on the way though (there is one land block). It takes several turns to set up since The coastal city on the hobbit side cannot build ships. Back trip is actually faster if you use fast moving cheap units (knights, for example). You don't need a lot of longboats. It just take less turns to send units around if you do. One hobbit per coastal city with coastal fortress and walls should be enough to protect your coastal line.
(Edit: Hobbit must be vet to win. Also, moving Legolas to the Southern front is very important due to his advantage against Harad. Gomli can defend the Hobbit cities after the Nazguls crash. You can move a spy bird to the area for patrol, then use Gomli to kill the enemy units before they can attack you).

You don't need to totally circle the Nazgul, you can leave the Southwest corner open (it does not have enough moving points to get back from that direction). I think once all surrounding units are land units it will attack; but if you have an air unit it will try to attack the air one so it won't crash (?).
(Edit: Confirmed).

Longboats do not carry air units. You have to build cities for the Ents to have a rest.

Eomer and Eowyn: No Idea.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 17, 2000).]

[Harlan]

Looks like you guys are coming up with some really good ideas. However, Xin Yu, regarding getting your units quickly south via peace with Isengard, my attitude is that any sort of jump like that is not allowed. The whole point of the scenario is the journey from Hobbit lands to Mt. Doom and any such jump relying on a quirk of Civ2 ruins everything.

I like all your other strategies, though. Xin Yu, by the way, have you actually played it through to the end (without jumping!) or are you still getting there?

[Xin Yu]

Harlan: For any scenario I usually play to a point when the outcome is clear (I even wrote a strategy for RedFront without finishing it). In this sense my first try was a failure (not enough turns to occupy all Mordor cities).

This time I'm confident that the outcome will be different. There are still some choices to make. For example, whether to use Gandalf and Aragon to defeat the Witch King and all Nazguls, or to use them to attack Mordor cities. I'm going to try the latter (huge amount of money for each Mordor city occupied, should be enough to cover the losses), but it may turned out to be a bad choice.

BTW, for testing the strength of Mordor unique units I have opened the cheat mode and did some experiments. I could not find Shelob. Did you forget to add it?

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Some new findings.

Frodo and the Ring does not need much protection if they go due South and Pippin is with them. Use your spy bird and longboats to patrol the path. Whenever there's danger, move them to a longboat.

Another route is to go due East and pass the mountains via Rivendell. Let Gollum meet them on the other side.

Vet Aragon on mountain can defeat Witch King (even twice in the same turn). So if you put Frodo, the ring, Aragon, and an air unit (Gandalf, Radagast, Gollum) together and make sure they end up in a mountain square, you are quite safe when approaching Mt. Dooms. As far as you stay 3 squares away from Barad-dur, Sarun is not likely to come out of the city to attack you. From either North or West there are mountains 3 squares away from Barad-dur.

[Sieve Too]

Harlan: Is the latest version 4.1 (at St Leo's site) or ver 4 at ACS? At the very least, the readme.txt is different.

Xin Yu: Dang you're clever! You say you only lost your first game?!?! I'm now going on my 5th try!

As I mentioned before, I usually use Gollum to protect Fordo and the Ring, along with Sam. When I get near Barad Dur, I try to stop in a mountain 3 squares due north or due west of the city. Then I move Gollum or Sam one square closer. If Sauron comes out, he'll have to kill Gollum or Sam first and then he won't have enough movement points to attack Frodo. Another advantage you gain by occupying the square 2 squares from Barad Dur is that another Mordor unit can't sit in in, blocking you from using the Ring. Has anyone tried attacking a unit 1 square from Barad Dur? This should kill Sauron and the others too.

I believe you are correct about Rhun attacking with all they've got and leaving cities poorly defended. I've tried a similar thing in Harad using Aragorn and Legolas (Is his bonus due to the Partisan-vs-0-attack bonus?). You can capture the city closest to Belfalas easily due to Aragorn's amphibious flag and Legolas' bonus vs. Mumakil. After taking it, Harad throws about 15-20 Haradrim at you over the course of the next 3 or 4 turns. Just sit tight behind walls and wait it out. Afterwards, Harad's cities will only be protected by one Mumakil and one or two Pikemen - easy pickings. Interestingly, Harad gets a free Dromund every 2 or 3 turns in that first city even after you capture it. You can click on it and although you can't move it, you can disband it for 30 free shields! Rhun should be even easier to take since they don't have a unit like the Mumakil.

Protecting the Hobbits: I generally just use the two Ranger units for protection. You have an infinite supply as long as they die in battle and not from lack of movement points.

Saruman: Even vet Gandalf can only defeat him if he's on grass, plains or ocean due to his very high defense, hp and fp. Isengard is surrounded by mountains, hills, forest, rivers and fortresses. I hate to have Gandalf wait around for Saruman to land on one of the few advantageous squares. Also, Saruman is one of the few units that can defeat Eomer and Eowyn so I am reluctant to take him out too early. If I can get either Eowyn or Eomer to Minas Tirith, the city will never fall.

Saruman will often come out to try to attack an Ent (he can't). By occasionally alternating Ents, Saruman will sit there forever and never move again. You can take Isengard right out from under him with Gandalf and some other units. Since Saruman is supported from Isengard, you can defeat him without ever attacking him.

Nazgul: When a stack of more than one Nazgul is defeated, only one gets reborn due to some quirk in the way CivII handles events. Just like Saruman with the Ents, the Nazgul try to attack Rangers and often stack themselves in the process. This is an excellent time for Gandalf to attack.

Aragorn: Much as I would like to use him to attack the cities in the north, I try to rush him to the south asap in anticipation of using him against The Grond. Faramir can't always defeat The Grond while Aragorn can (and from the safety of a ship).

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Nice observation on Saruman. I have found that as well. The first 4 Orcs in Isengard was tough (only Vet Gandalf and Treebeard can defeat them), so I still feel that Gandalf should be moved there for the job. Afterwards it's easy. However you need to move a landunit there to occupy it, that's tricky.

Aragorn is the best unit and you only have one. Like I said it's a tough choice. I prefer to occupy Mordor cities and get a lot of cash for supporting the war. Aragorn plus Gandalf can eliminate the first two tough units in the city, then the eagles can get the job done.

you can use a eagle to stay on a lake square to produce ZOC and protect the Carrock.
Edit: Eagles and other air units don't produce ZOC if on lake.

Edit: You can use Radagast to attack the Grond.

Edit: 3 Dwarfs along the river defeated a dozen of Rhun attackers. Gollum and the Eagle King protected another river. Soon the Rhun will have no attacking units and the dwarfs and eagles can finish them. Rhuns have archers (x2 vs. air flag) so I prefer to use dwarfs to attack.

Harad have too many ships, got to find a way to get rid of them.

Use Gandalf to punch a hole in the Orcs wall (two squares west of eagles eerie) and move Gomli and Boromir to Eagles Eerie then watch the Mordor units waste against it. Meanwhile eagles can sit on the lake squares and pick up wolves. Don't let them go too south. A nazgul may appear there.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 21, 2000).]

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: How's everything going? I haven't started the second try yet but I'm testing verious tactics.

First I'm testing using vet Gallery to defend against the Harad ships. Longboats have move 8, so I send them out 4 squares away to see if a Harad ships is there. Then I use a vet Gallery to attack before they reach the shore.

Another thing I'm testing is the 'Nazgul trap'. I have figured out a way to let them crash. I think it is possible to get 3 Nazguls and the Witch King crash by themselves. By placing 5-7 units strategically on the returning route of the enemy air units, they will crash regardless of moving points. I even figured out a way to let them crash without killing one of my units, but it is difficult to execute.

-----x---------
------xy-------
----oooxoC-----
---o--x--------
--o--x---------
-N-------------
The above is one type of the trap. N=Nazgul, C=Closest Enemy City. o=the Nazgul's return route. x=entrapment units. If all 'x' units have 'x2 against air' flag then the Nazgul will look for other target to kill (once it realizes it will not make to the city), for example, the unit one 'y'. However it may never get there so the Nazgul will crash withouth killing any units. (I put a ranger on 'y' and archers on 'x', haven't tried other types of units on 'y'.)

[PolarisGL]

Guys, the Art of War needs this kind of thinking. Possible strategies for the scenario?

[Xin Yu]

George: I sure will write one, if I can, in your words, turn it into a piece of cake.

[Xin Yu]

Sieve Too: Longboat can see two as well. Two longboats should be enough to check the area. Drumond and Galley both have move 5, so it works perfect. If a Drumond is 6 squares away you need to send troops to coastal squares to prevent landing. If closer than that, you can attack.

I use high moving units for Nazgul traps. Archers are too slow. But theoretically you can use archers.

[PolarisGL]

Indeed Xin. You've won the General of the Month once, and I have three patches to sew. Whoever submits the longest Lord of the Rings strategy wins the June award.

[Sieve Too]

Haven't had a chance to play in a while The Nazgul trap looks interesting but setting it up must be difficult. Archers are only m=1 units so you risk the Nazgul picking them off as they are moved into position over the course of several turns. Even with rivers and roads, Nazgul generate ZOC making it hard to move around them.

Harad Dromunds: Longboats can go 4 out and back but Dromund have fairly high movement IIRC so you might not see them. I usually move the Spy Bird from Minas Tirith to Belfalas and use it to check for Dromund. Spy Bird has m=20 and can see 2 squares so it is usually sufficient. As you undoubtably discovered, if you do nothing the Dromund attack en masse and overwhelm Belfalas. In fact, if you let even one Dromund land its units, you are screwed since one will be a vet Mumakil and they are very hard to defeat.
Vet Galleys vs. Dromund are your only hope to keep the coastal Gondor cities so must rush buy a few.

Vet Galleys can also protect your city between Pelagir and Belfalas (forget the name). When the Haradrim breakthrough and attack the city, they will kill a Pikeman. Since the squares they attack from are plains or grass, vet Galleys can counter attack and take them out (since they lose their fp of 2 when attacked by ships). The city is on a river so once you mine it to forest, 2 vet Dunedain are usually enough to hold off the Haradrim.

I usually build a couple vet Galleys for Minas Tirith to use against Mordor's Dromunds as well as Orcs, Uruk-Hai, Easterlings, Trolls and Wolves. Once you've retreated and pillaged away all the fortresses around the city, you can defeat a stack of Mordor units on grass with a vet Galley as long as it doesn't contain an Olog-Hai.