Question for ancient navy experts

[BeBMan]

Around 265 BC, Geron II. of Syracus(e?) gave the order to built the "Syracusa" (or "Syracusia"?), the biggest warship of its time. Compared with the other Triremes and Quinqueremes, this ship was simply giant. According to my sources, it was able to transport 4000(!) soldiers.

Questions: Are these Infos correct?
Has anyone some pictures of this ship available? Any additional info are also welcome. Thanks!

[Prometeus]

According to Michael Grant, "Hellenistic civilization", the ship was named ALESSANDRIA; this sea-moster could carry 5000 tons ---> considering an ancient man = 60 KG, goods, weapons, siege stuff, slaves ( who do you think was to move this ship ? ) and so on, well ... maybe yes !!!

The ship WAS REALLY BUILDED - a huge sea-monster.

I don't know about pics: maybe this'll fit, but is still unfinished ...

[BeBMan]

Thanks Prometeus! But are you sure that this is the same ship? I´ve read that after the construction of the "Syracusa" (or whatever), the (still hellenistic) leaders of Egypt decide to build also such a huge ship. I think this was the "Alessandria", but it was not the ship built in Syracuse...

[Prometeus]

According to te same resource, this ship was never finished the egyptian one, i mean.

Got the pic i send you ?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

[SCDARS]

Bernd, are you sure about the year (264 BC- just at the beginning of the 1st punic war) and the name "Geron II."? Gelon II. would seem more proable, but in the 1st punic war only Hieron is mentioned as syracusan leader...
I'll fetch some info for you, for now I can just recommend http://www.webcom.com/shownet/medea/...h/grkship.html
BTW, I hope I'll be able to reply to your last mail tomorrow...

Sorry, I'd to edit the URL...
[This message has been edited by SCDARS (edited June 18, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Thanks Ingo, and I´m not sure about year and name. I have only poor information about this, mainly from a so called "historic" book about the development of naval warfare, but there are lots of errors in this book and so I think it´s not a good source.

I´ve also read at the Classis Romana website that such a ship was possibly a catamaran with two giant hulls...?!?

And thanks Prometeus, I received the pic

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited June 18, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Yeah, the Egyptian one was planned to be builded like you said before, according to greek and egyptian historicians wrote about it. But i'm not sure, this Grant's is not a naval book...
Classis Romana, hyouh said?
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 19, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

If you're going to made a restiling of Rome Civ2 scenario, remember that Carthage's fleet was mainly composed by biremis ships ( they preferred velocity - yikes, speed ), Romans preferred more heavy models instead ( quinquiremis-like ). Macedonian fleet also was a lot composite and ...
weird: since Antigonus II Gonatas and A. III Doson, they kept in line various kinds of ships, from the illiric "limbus" model ( a kind of ultra-light ship ), to more heavy ones, as well as heavily-armoured ships ( they were the decisive weapon at the naval battle of Andros against Egyptian fleet, mainly composed of light biremis or triremis).
Seleucid fleet was a "quantitè negligeable".
Too bad you can't perform Greek Rodian fleet in its full glory ( have you even see the "Navarch's" mausoleum on Rodi's island? ).
The Celtic fleet ... well, check out Caesar's "De bello gallico" about Venetic's tribe fleet, or later authors about Brittonic or Pictic-scots models - or send me an e-mail, i've made some rip-off from Rise and Rules of Ancient Empires a long time ago.
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Ooops, my e-mail is

fratelli.goddi@tiscalinet.it


P.S. i've finally found where the heck was my Celtic Britain Units.gif file - there are a lot of ships' pics here... just make a whistle !
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Thanks Prometeus, but are you sure about the Carthagian Biremes? I´ve read that the Carthagians mostly used Penteres (the Greek name for Ouinqueremes, because these ships were built at first in Syracuse and Carthage, only later by Romans).

According to my books Carthagians build also heavier ships, based on the Pentere (Hexere, Heptere, Oktere and so on).

Thanks also for your offer to send me units, but I´d like to create my own "navy" .

[Prometeus]

Yup, i'm quite sure about that.
First - the proportion of Carthage war fleet was 1 to 1 ( i mean one biremis/triremis for every pentera/heavier ship ) - according to my source book "The Phoenician travels".
Second - during the First Punic War, a Carthaginian admiral ( Aderbal/Hamilcar/whateverhewasnamed ) planned this strategy: "Instead of one big fleet, let's make a lot of small ones, in order to reach and ravage Italic coastal towns. A small fleet'll escape Roman's naval surveillance more better than a big one...",
and a biremis suited better for such kind of piracy tactics ( Carthage owned Western Sicily at the time, it was no problem for coastal travelling ships to reach Italy ).

Yeap, you're right, also Carthage's warfleet used penteras/quinquiremis and heavier ships; to be more exact Carthaginian builded the most heaviest phoenician ships ( note: and when i say a LOT, i mean they builded a lot: the Carthage's military Arsenal was a big construction - it stored from 300 to 400 SHIPS, according to a historical newspaper;pratically, it stored the most of carthaginian fleet ! Also, just in case, 200 heavier models can be managed to stay out near commercial docks - maybe they were too heavy to put them into, what a bunch of lazy-bones)... only they where not the favourite war ones - they were a supply/commercial-reserved kind.

Yesss, Romans started later then Greeks or Carthaginians ( they hated sea so badly they called him "the fool's field" ).
Indeed, a wreched Carthaginian "pentera" was the initial model for the making of the Roman Navy ( all the work was done by Italic Greek allies - talking of lazy-bones - because in Rome were less than 100 people able to build a ship! ). Don't forget the "corvus" trick adopted by Romans !!!
Another cute trick in ancient sea warfare was the Rodian Pausistratus' one, the "fire-pot" : a pot, fixed to a wood bar and filled with fired coals, in order to be drawned on enemies by teasing a rope ( it was the "Greek fire" ancestor ).

According to this book, the Egyptyan planned-to-be-build ship should become a QUADRIGINTAREMIS ( 400 !!! ).

[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

[Prometeus]

Yikes, i apologize with you, BeBro...
i've already sended before the "Celtic Britain" units file to you - it was the one in pics-Zip file!!!

Sorry, Prometeus
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 20, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Don´t worry, Prometeus!

By the way, the Classis Romana website is at: http://www.classis-romana.de/

It´s a great site about the Roman navy. I´ve found it on Hendrik the Great´s site, which is a really good source!

[Prometeus]

Thanks a lot ! A very useful site...

For the latest news on Roman naval archeology ( these ships were found only A YEAR AGO - make a hole in italian ground, and you 'll always find something !), why don't you try

http://www.navipisa.it/

Pay attention! The home page is in italian... but there's a link to an english version on bottom of that page.


[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 22, 2000).]

[BeBMan]

Prometeus, I uploaded some new units to my (German) website, including many ancient ships. Click the homepage button, if you are interested and go to the Multimedia section (I can also send the units to you, if you hate German ).

Stefan, Pyrrhos´ ship must be a Heptere (seven rows of oarsmen..."Siebenruderer"), if my info are correct. Lets hope that I don´t running out of units slots for Imperium Romanum 2.0...

[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited June 22, 2000).]