Question for ancient navy experts

[St Leo]

Another hint - check out the rip-off from Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires made by StLeo...

Prometeus is referring to:


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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
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[Stefan Härtel]

Perhaps you should also note the flagship of Phyrros of Epeiros. It was captured by the Carthaginians during the wars of Rome and Carthage against Epeiros (in the 270s). The ship had 7 decks of oars, and was the largest ship that was ever in the Carthaginian fleet.

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[Prometeus]

A good hint for BeBro, Stefan!!!
Another hint - check out the rip-off from Rise and Rule of Ancient Empires made by StLeo...

P.S. Many carthaginian triremis were copied from syracusan ships, captured after the battle of Catania against Dionisius of Syracuse in 370 B.C. ---> you can use the greek triremis to perform the carthaginian model, because they were the same...

[BeBMan]

Cool, St.Leo, I really love the flags and the icons (especially the Egyptian pyramides, the sphinx and others)! They would add lots of atmosphere to my scenario...

[Stefan Härtel]

BeBro:

quote: Während im 6. Jh. noch die Pentekontere (ein fünfzigrudriges Schiff) der gängige Schiffstyp war, wurde seit dem 5. Jh. vor allem die Trierer (ein Schiff mit drei Ruderreihen) eingesetzt. Im 3. Jh. wurde die Tetrere (ein Schiff mit vier Ruderreihen) -angeblich eine Erfindung der Karthager- gebaut, und in den Römischen Kriegen kam vor allem die Pentere (ein Schiff mit fünf Ruderreihen) zum Einsatz. Am Bau größerer Schiffstypen waren die Karthager nicht interessiert. Nur einmal wird eine Heptere (ein Schiff mit sieben Ruderreihen) erwähnt-und dieses war das Admiralsschiff des Pyrrhos gewesen, das die Karthager erbeutet haben.

(From Werner Huß, "Karthago")

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

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much screwed that whole idea..
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[SCDARS]

Stefan, in which "Verlag" was the book you quoted from published?
Is it recommendable? I've always been searching for a good book dealing with the Punians...

[Stefan Härtel]

Here's the information:
Werner Huß, "Karthago"
C.H. Beck, (from the "Beck'sche Reihe: Wissen"), Munich 1995.
Itis my primary source of information about Carthage, and I highly recommend it, as well as all other books from this series (you can find it in virtually every german book store: They're the thin colourful ones, all available for DM 14,80).
There is also another one in this series about Hannibal- excellently written, very informative and with lots of maps.

You can also look for "So lebten die Karthager" by Charles-Picard, but this one can be found only in second-hand bookshops as it was published in 1959.
The "Fischer Weltgeschichte" has also published a book about Rome and Carthage ("Der Hellenismus und der Aufstieg Roms"). They're the thick black-and white ones, all available for DM 26,90 (although they are not as widely spread). I haven't got that one, but I ave 4 others and think it's recommendable too.

Prometheus:
The quote does not say much more than that the Carthaginians built Penteconteres, Tetreres, Trieres, and Penteres, as well as the capture of the flagship of Pyrrhos of Epeiros, the Heptere.

By the Way, I have never heard of the Alessandria - wait: scanning my sources: nope.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


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[Prometeus]

Tiny colourful ones... wait a minute... yes!!! I think Garzanti published them in Italy also, under the title "I corsi della storia"!!! World is a little place to stay, huh?

About the Alessandria: i'm quite sure about this source; Grant worked at the Trinity College, Cambridge, UK...

[Prometeus]

No fair, Stefan!!! The quote's in German...
Anyway, thanks to my good luck the "Rise of Kok Turks" scenario i'm currently working on doesn't have to perform ships....

To StLeo
I guess i'll have to use one of your icons to perform the "Silk Road" wonder...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited June 23, 2000).]

[Stefan Härtel]

I dunno... they're all by German authors. On the other hand, there are some very popular history books here, all translated from French...
BUT, its not all about history! There are also books about science, medicine, philosophy et cetera.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


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[Stefan Härtel]

By the Way , Gelon II was king of Syracuse from 240-216 BC together with Hieron II (275-215 BC) (a double-king monarchy, just like in Sparta). Perhaps the ship was not designed in 265 BC but possibly in the 2nd Punic War. Remember, the 1st Punic War ended in 241 BC, and Syracuse was nominally subject of the Roman Empire. Also, remember that the Syracusans built astonishing defense machines with Archimedes- he could've also been responsible for that ship.
Just a quick thought of mine.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


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[BeBMan]

Thanks for the info Stefan!

And I´ve found something new about the big ship: It was build in Syracuse as "Syracusia", but later renamed into "Alessandria" (for us Germans: "Alexandria"). Yes, It has really been build, but his appearence is still unclear today...
The ship was to big for the most ancient ports, only Syracuse and Alexandria had ports that were big enough!

By the way, I think, a scenario about ancient Syracuse would be also a good idea, but perhaps I should finish my other things first...

[Prometeus]

Same ship, two different names... aw aw aw!! "Too much ado about nothing" - Shakespeare . We were speaking about the same thing...

By the way, Stefan, Garzanti published books in the same format, but in various series ( one for history, one for science etc. etc. ), and autors are mostly German ( Herm, Lehmann, Siegert, Schreiber ... ).

[Stefan Härtel]

None of those names appear in the bibliography. Could you give me some titles?

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

[Prometeus]

A few examples:

Herm, Gerhard: "Die Kelten"
" " : "Strahlend in Purpur un Gold" ( on bizantine empire )
Schreiber, Hermann: "Halbmond uber Granada"
Lehmann, Johannes: "Die Kreuzfahrer"
Siegert, Heinz: "Wo einst Apollo lebte" ( on Thracians ).
I keep on thinking they might be not the same books you were referring to....