Vikings scenario redo

[Harlan]

Hi,
Its been a long time since I've done any Civ2 stuff- I've been (and still am) burned out on editing Civ2. But I'm pleased to announce a new project. Alex (mor) asked if he could revamp the graphics for my Vikings scenario. I started thinking, more than just the graphics need redoing (That was my first scenario and always the one I had the most problems with). So I started to think about redoing it (a new map being badly needed IMO) but I didn't want to do the work. Happily, Jesus Balsinde has stepped in and will do most of the nitty gritty while I provide the new map and some general direction.

Sooo, this leads to some questions. First, it seems since I last freqented these pages, people have been getting more into hex editing. I am very intrigued by two hex editing possibilities. One, turning the barbarian civ into a normal civ. There was a thread about this a while back saying it could be done (FastEddie, you mentioned this). If so, I'd like to know how!

Secondly, I think it would be great to edit the hexes to put special resources exactly where one wants. Seems no reason why not, if only one knew where in the .sav file to look. I tried looking and it was mostly Greek to me. But I was thinking, maybe there is a way. Does anyone have a program where you can compare the text of two documents to see what's different between them? Cos what one could do is take a game, uncover a sea spot where there would be a fish, then save that under a new name. Then compare the two files- I imagine they would only be different by one hex. Then, experiment and figure out the pattern.

One last question, for those knowledgable of Muslim/Arabic matters. Could someone explain the deal with "Al-" prefixes in city names? I have widely conflicting sources over cities (like Basrah, Madinah or Mawsil) that sometimes use the Al- and sometimes don't. Some cities get it attached in front more than others. Plus, sometimes its capitalized, and sometimes its not! What's the best to use? What does it mean?

Harlan

[Fast_Eddie]

Ackk..something I mentioned...

Well, about barbarian civs. All I know about that is that you can give the barbarians cities, instruct them on what to build, and rename the barbarians to the nuetrals or something.

I tried hex-editing, but the only one who's added a civ (From a game with less than 7) in there is Nemo.

I feel so important being mentioned by the great Harlan.

[Michael Daumen]

Harlan, good to hear your voi -- I mean, see your typing.

I always understood Al- to be an article like "a" or "the."

BTW, have you checked out ToT?

[Harlan]

I quote Fast Eddie, from a few months back:

"If anyone would know, it would be Andrew Livings. I've read over his HEX editing guide about 50 times, and I still don't understand most of it. From what I remember (don't quote me on this), Andrew tested the "8th" civ with the HEX editor, and the only problem he had (Once again DON'T QUOTE ME) was that the flags didn't show up."

Sorry for quoting, despite your protestations! But I want to get to the bottom of this. I emailed Andrew about this (he hasn't replied yet) and checked out his website. Seems some of the most interesting things he has to say about hex editing are now on dead links. I'd like to see this hex editing guide, if it still exists (outside of editing cities which is still on his website).

[Harlan]

Michael,
Good to run into you again, too. That was my guess on "Al-" as well, like saying "The Bronx". But I still don't know when to use it or not, and about capitalization. Maybe its one of those no right answer things, like spelling the name of the leader of Libya (I'm not even gonna try).

I've never checked out ToT, it seemed pretty disappointing. At least they added some events language I hear. Too bad they didn't do that kind of thing before. It would be tempting to upgrade scenarios, just for the extra events power since I felt the events space and abilities always constrained me, but seems like there isn't a critical mass of people who bought ToT (not even me, a big Civ2 fan).

[Fast_Eddie]

Ahhh, yes...Andrew Livings reported quite a long time ago that he had done that. I can't quite remember where though...

How many times did I say don't quote me on this in that? Guess I'll know beteter next time .

Have you seen his guide to hex editing?
[This message has been edited by Fast_Eddie (edited January 21, 2000).]

[Mercator]

Harlan, about your second point:
Customizing the resources is not possible. I don't know what savegames look like, but in an .MP file, the resource is only saved as a seed number (the number you can enter when pressing "s" in the MapEditor). This seed number is read by the executable, which then generates the correct pattern (well, this is just a guess at how it might work). This is certainly the same with savegames.
How unfortunate!

[Stefan Härtel]

You can always try to make ressources 'regional', however you must be very careful when placing the terrains.
Use the seed option in the map editor to make ressources there where you want.
Another point is of course, what ressources you want to use. Being a European who is interested in his enviroment, I think I can help you with that...

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong.

We who grew up tall and proud
In the shadow of the mushroom cloud
Convinced our voices can't be heard
We just want to scream it louder and louder:
"What the hell are we fighting for?"
"Just surrender and it won't hurt at all"
-Brian May (Queen)

[techumseh]

Glad to hear about the project, Harlan. I hope you'll reconsider doing Vikings in Test of Time. Or at least consider a parallel version.

The events are the real advantage - there's really no comparison to FW. ToT has over three times the capacity. The new language provides a quantum leap in what can be simulated. Use of flags and masks (turning events on and off), multiple triggers, modifiers and several new actions means that the various possibilites have yet to be explored.

I'm a big fan of Angelo Scotto's CivConverter program, which converts FW scenarios into ToT. It doesn't work on all scenarios. ToT has bug relating to major objectives, so scenarios with those included may not convert.

Right now I'm finishing a ToT upgrade of my old Congo! scenario, and the new events capability has been wonderful to work with. For once, I put in all the events I wanted, and didn't have to decide which ones I didn't have space for.

[Mercator]

I know where to find the map data in a .SAV file, but there is no resource info in that part whatsoever. So if there is any information about resources, other than a seed, it must be in a yet unexplored part of the .SAV file. And that won't be simply a "resource layer" as big as the map part itself, except only stating whether there is a resource on a square or not.
The only other possibilities are a resource seed or some other "semi-compressed" information about resources. Either way it won't be possible to change it to anything you like.

[Captain Nemo]

I agree with Mercator, the special ressources are just layed out in a fixed pattern (like wallpaper) the only thing you can change is the spacing by changing the seed number. If you change the seed the entire pattern spacing changes... I would have eliminated some of the special ressources and used them as a couple of new terrain types...
My approach has been to eliminate some of the special ressources by creating a generic ressource that fits in everywhere (Marshes/ponds) When I come across a spot where I don't want a ressource I just change the terrain to Marshes and I have a pond with no special bonuses. It fits in well in forest, grassland, tundra, plains, jungle and even hills... This gives a little more flexibility in placing the ressources.

[Harlan]

Mercator, I would be very interested in finding out where in the .sav file the terrain info is. Could you explain? I only know the city part thanks to Andrew, and a rough idea of the unit part just before it.

I still think something editable must be going on. At the very least, how is it that some ocean squares can have a special resources and others not, depending on distance from shore, and that one can uncover this by converting it to land halfway through a game? True, that shows the wallpaper-like pattern must be recorded somewhere in the file, but also whether the special resource is being used or is turned off must be recorded as well.

Is it possible to change the seed, via the .sav file? How?

Captain Nemo, I follow very similar methods. In this Viking case, I switched the place of grassland and swamp, allowing me to have special resources for grassland. The swamp can be strategically placed most anywhere to get rid of a special resource square I don't want. I also have an unused terrain type which I changed into "special", acting as a special resource equivalent whereever I want it. But it would be so nicer if I could just edit the .save file to have it exactly as I want!

[Harlan]

Fast Eddie,
If there is a Andrew Hex guide different from that one webpage about editing cities, I haven't seen it and would love to.

Mercator,
I don't know if the way special resources are seeded in the map program has anything to do with how special resource info is recorded in the actual .sav file. Why should it be the same? At that point, would it be faster in computing time to simply have a "no resource", "resource 1" or "resource 2" flag for each square?

Stephan,
I think I've done a good job as far as I can with what Civ2 allows. I just wish I had that extra power.

techumseh,
Yes, someone sent me the file explaining the events abilities. Very nice, but I don't even own ToT and don't want to spend actual money for it. If you or anyone else would like to make a ToT version, I would be very happy to see that happen.

[Mercator]

Indeed the resources are a bit weird in Civ2, in contrast with what you get to see in the MapEditor. In the MapEditor there are fixed patterns of resources all over the map, while in the game this isn't always the case. I don't have an explanation for that, it's probably some fancy algorithm.

There is undoubtedly a place where the resource seed is stored in a savegame, I guess it's somewhere near the start of the file, but I don't know (yet).

About the map part in a savegame:
I don't have any savegame at hand, so I can't give the exact location. Maybe this is enough info to find it: every square is represented by 6 bytes, so the amount of space used by a map is 6 x surface. the last byte of a square always (?) is the HEX-code F0. As far as I can remember the map is stored closer to the end than the beginning of a file. Well, this vague info might help you.

In case you're wondering, the code used for the map-squares in a savegame, a scenario and a map are NOT the same, although vaguely similar. I do know the exact codes used in a map file, but there are some strange differences in the maps of savegames and scenarios.

[Mercator]

For everyone interested in the details of the map in a savegame. I made a small guide about this. It's not complete yet, but it still offers some valuable information:
Terrain Coding In CivilizationII Savegames

And Harlan, if you still have the tutorial.sav from civ2: the map starts at the offset 0000A1E6. The last byte is at 0000FFA5.
[This message has been edited by Mercator (edited January 26, 2000).]