StarCraft!

[Zero]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Ok I see. So maybe you should play more WC3. What lvl are you btw?

-Yeah I do. Im such a scrub. I need to learn more
-I also need a Computer that can run WC..
-Dont ask me my level. level doesnt define l33tness (just like ladder ranking doesnt in sc)
-Besides I dont have an acct. i use my friends.
-my friend's level is like 10-15 i think. But then again he's korean. (he doesnt play regulary which is prolly why he has low lvl)

[Zero]

i was gonna make a seperate warcraft thread but this thread has already become thread for all RTS it seems...

I have trouble teching as the orcs. Ya know the one where you go shaman/withch doc? Is this an obsolete tactic in FT? I do a compromised version where I actually go with grunts and implement shamans as fast as I can. I cant seem to get docs if i do this cause i waste alot of gold building grunts early and cant get as much lumber as i need or something... It seems to work at my level, but I would like to know if anyone could be me pointers on how to do proper hero rush + tech to shaman/docs

[Puma]

Originally posted by Zero
And this was in BGH games? normal/ladder games
...
If its a BGH game, well terrans get rally jipped... cause you cant abuse outproduction outresourcing as one of your advantage as much in this game... Terrans do have some really good BGH units.. Ghosts are good

Yes, BGH games. I was whinning about the last experiences I had playing SC; and most of those games were on BGH with the 20K mineral blocks.

Happy New Years

[Jethro83]

Originally posted by MattH

Are you kidding about AoK? Remember Castle Rush? Tower Rush? Town Hall Rush?

You're right that AoK still left room for cheap, abusive tactics like the tower rush. However, when I tried them for myself to try to "know the enemy" so to speak, I found the AoK rushes harder and more costly to pull off than Starcraft rushes. All it took was 50 minerals every few seconds playing as the zerg in Starcraft and the game was already decided.

Surely its harder to fight off the tier 1 grunt units of the enemy in Starcraft than it is to fight off a couple of villagers struggling to get a tower (or even a castle) built next to your town in AoK.

It wasn't perfect, but AoK was still better to play online than Starcraft.

[DinoDoc]

You lost to Zergling rushes? What race were you playing?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Zero
i was gonna make a seperate warcraft thread but this thread has already become thread for all RTS it seems...

I have trouble teching as the orcs. Ya know the one where you go shaman/withch doc? Is this an obsolete tactic in FT? I do a compromised version where I actually go with grunts and implement shamans as fast as I can. I cant seem to get docs if i do this cause i waste alot of gold building grunts early and cant get as much lumber as i need or something... It seems to work at my level, but I would like to know if anyone could be me pointers on how to do proper hero rush + tech to shaman/docs

I'm just off out but tomorrow I'll respond.........I've played orcs a fair bit. In fact the BM was my avatar for ages.

[Zero]

lordazarael, zerg rushes got nerfed. Spawning pool is 200 minerals. That makes a HUGE difference.

happy new years... Holy **** i wish you guys were there with me. Im sure there was alot of NY polyer on the street tonight. Who knows maybe I passed by one of them too!

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Zero


I have trouble teching as the orcs. Ya know the one where you go shaman/withch doc? Is this an obsolete tactic in FT? I do a compromised version where I actually go with grunts and implement shamans as fast as I can. I cant seem to get docs if i do this cause i waste alot of gold building grunts early and cant get as much lumber as i need or something... It seems to work at my level, but I would like to know if anyone could be me pointers on how to do proper hero rush + tech to shaman/docs

The FS/BM 11 peon 1 tower ROC tech to casters is no more. Essentially teching costs more wood now, and critically towers no longer have fortified armour to begin with, making teching more difficult. Also since the ROC 1.06 patch casters deal magic damage and are unarmoured, which makes massing them a la 1.05 and before not a feasible strategy.

In TFT a number of builds should be tried. The first is a 12 peon and barracks with third you queue up. Tech in early 20s foodwise and go SL for docs (or shams versus humans) when you hit tier 2. Other variants have 10 peons early on (you can get a barracks slightly earlier with this build) then add 2 more at tier 2. Then you can decide whether to go to tier 3 for tauren and tier 3 spells or pump more grunts, casters, hh at tier 2.

As far as teching builds go teching to straight casters is very uncommon now. But people do try heavy harass with FS or BM and tech to wyverns, and sometimes tauren. The 'standard' would be FS then grab a naga at tier 2 from the tavern.

In the middle is an early tech then a delayed barracks as soon as you get the wood. This is quite popular since you have enough units to defend a mid game attack, and the speed of the teching allows a naga as quickly as the all out teching build.

[Panzeh]

That's the problem with RTS today. Too much emphasis on which units you use rather than how you use them.

[DrSpike]

Not really......how you use the units is always an important part of the overall strategy, just not one that is as simply explained as unit combos.

[Zero]

Umm panzeh, WC is all about how you use not what you use IMO.

[Zero]

Originally posted by DrSpike

Essentially teching costs more wood now,

Yeah I noticed I can tech reasonably if I abandon witch Docs. But then I wont have the benefit of heal ward...

and critically towers no longer have fortified armour to begin with, making teching more difficult.

Also since the ROC 1.06 patch casters deal magic damage and are unarmoured, which makes massing them a la 1.05 and before not a feasible strategy.

What is the significance of type dmg vs type armor. I know there is a fortified is weak agst siege relationship, but what is the full picture. (is it like SC where they had R.P.S cycle for small med large size class)

In TFT a number of builds should be tried. The first is a 12 peon and barracks with third you queue up. Tech in early 20s foodwise and go SL for docs (or shams versus humans) when you hit tier 2. Other variants have 10 peons early on (you can get a barracks slightly earlier with this build) then add 2 more at tier 2. Then you can decide whether to go to tier 3 for tauren and tier 3 spells or pump more grunts, casters, hh at tier 2.

This may be old strat, but my friend used to skip barracks when he wanted to tech early Is this still doable?

As far as teching builds go teching to straight casters is very uncommon now. But people do try heavy harass with FS or BM and tech to wyverns, and sometimes tauren. The 'standard' would be FS then grab a naga at tier 2 from the tavern.

I noticed people like to tech to air units lot more now.

In the middle is an early tech then a delayed barracks as soon as you get the wood. This is quite popular since you have enough units to defend a mid game attack, and the speed of the teching allows a naga as quickly as the all out teching build.

If you build a barrack at tier 2, you might get anothwer hero lot faster, but wouldnt it take longer time to build a force anyway?

[DrSpike]

Armour and attack types are crucial to understand. It changed significantly in ROC 1.06 also. Melee units have melee attack (well duh ) and heavy armour. Melee attack does extra damage against ranged units, which all have medium armour. Ranged units do extra damage versus unarmoured units (casters), and to an extent against lightly armoured units. Lightly armoured units are usually air units. Casters (lower attack anyway now) have magic damage which performs well only really against heavy armour.

Towers now have heavy armour, which means they die much faster to an early attack. When they had fortified armour an orc could tech with 1 tower and burrows with no fear of being mashed.

Teching is still viable, just riskier than before. You need to successfully harass with no let up. I would add that teching is less attractive since the 1.06 armour/attack changes rendered mass casters ineffective.......so what are you teching to now that casters are support units? It is possible to go mass air, or some air then tauren, but remember the counters are stronger now, so mass air is risky. Tauren are tier 3, and that means you have to survive a long time.

To start I recommend the 12 peon build, which gives you 5 grunts before you reach tier 2. You should also try the delayed barracks build, which gives you 2/3 grunts by the time you reach tier 2. Remember that grunts cost only gold........if you tech as early as poss (ie when you get the wood) then build barracks when you get 50 wood after that, then you have enough resources to keep kicking grunts until tier 2 arrives.

Personally I usually do the first build, since I prefer a couple more grunts to an early tier 2.

[Zero]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Armour and attack types are crucial to understand. It changed significantly in ROC 1.06 also. Melee units have melee attack (well duh ) and heavy armour. Melee attack does extra damage against ranged units, which all have medium armour. Ranged units do extra damage versus unarmoured units (casters), and to an extent against lightly armoured units. Lightly armoured units are usually air units. Casters (lower attack anyway now) have magic damage which performs well only really against heavy armour.

Interesting! Fortified armour class is not in the Rock paper cycle? Oh and is there any poor matchups where you deal less dmg? For example, concussive dmg in SC was best dmg agst small but weak on large, while explosive was the total opoosite (best agst large, weak vs sm)

Towers now have heavy armour, which means they die much faster to an early attack. When they had fortified armour an orc could tech with 1 tower and burrows with no fear of being mashed.

I figure it had to do with being weak agst early unit attack type...

To start I recommend the 12 peon build, which gives you 5 grunts before you reach tier 2. You should also try the delayed barracks build, which gives you 2/3 grunts by the time you reach tier 2. Remember that grunts cost only gold........if you tech as early as poss (ie when you get the wood) then build barracks when you get 50 wood after that, then you have enough resources to keep kicking grunts until tier 2 arrives.

That is one thing I like about grunts. Theyre very good low tier units and they only cost gold. Very tech friendly if you need to devote lots of lumber on something else.


One more thing about orcs. I remember my friend demonstrating a gold mining trick where you bild two building between the path orc/human peons take. This forces the peons to take much tighter efficient path to the gold mine allowing you to only use 4 peons at the same rate harvesting gold as 5 normal. I tried this on FT couple of times and it doesnt seem to work? Am I building the buildings not tightly enough/building it wrong or is this changed in ROC1.06/FT?

[DrSpike]

Siege is the only damage form which deals extra damage to fortified armour. There are indeed penalties so that other attack types deal less than normal damage......this is true of all attack and armour types, but I only wanted to point out the essential features.

For an in-depth analysis look here:

http://www.battle.net/war3/basics/armorandweapontypes.shtml

The peon 'trick' never worked for all mines and all maps, and required practice to pull off even when it was possible. I say required in the past tense, because 1.13 TFT removed this possibility allegedly for all mines on all maps.