Will this forum ever recover from 9/11 and Iraq?

[GePap]

JohnT: what the hell is "pro-American"?

There is a set of values we call american, of which dmeocracy and freedom of expression, specifically political and religious, are top.

It seems to me the only way to be anti-American is to be anti-dmeocracy, anti-free expression. Otherwise, how can you be anti-American?

Its like in the movies :"be yourself, be different!- as long as you fall within a prescribed circle of what is "acceptably" different".... Sorry, but for me such an attitude is insane, its absurd, it boggles the mind. America is, first and formost, an Idea. That is what is greatest about America: it is not about something tangiable, it is about a dream for how things should be. Now, people have ever right to disagree about how such a dream should be achieved, and how, if ever, such a dream can be expanded to fill the whole world (and that every argument is part of the dream) but as long as they believe in it, they can't possibly be "anti-American".

[Imran Siddiqui]

Does that mean we can't be called anti-French unless we are against the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternaty?

[orange]

GePap - nonsense! Just because American ideals lie with freedom liberty and democracy doesn't mean that it operates respecting these ideals. It is easy to be anti-American or anti-American policy without being anti-Democracy/Liberty/Freedom.

[GePap]

Does that mean we can't be called anti-French unless we are against the ideas of liberty, equality and fraternaty?

French culture existed for centuries before the Revolutionaries created this slogan. The French revolution did not create French culture or history, it is part of it. America had some "American" culture before the revolution, but much of what we think as American developed after the Constitution came into being. Think of it, what do soldiers in france pledge to? My bet is they pledge to the French nation. What do our officals pledge to? A piece of paper, a document. To me, that does make a difference. America has a place, but the basis for what is American has not been that space, it was a set of ideas that some hoped perhaps could be pout to practice on what they called virgin lands. I understand that the two are linked, but still the diea is more important than the piece of land.

GePap - nonsense! Just because American ideals lie with freedom liberty and democracy doesn't mean that it operates respecting these ideals. It is easy to be anti-American or anti-American policy without being anti-Democracy/Liberty/Freedom.

Look above: I don;t think America is just simply about a piece of real-states with aparticualr group of people. Why,c ause new people are coming in all the time, changing the makeup of that real-estate. What in the end makes everyone in the uS American is a shared sense of ideals. I vehemently disagree with conservatives, but I know that they trully believe that what they are doing is what they think will lead to more freedom and the creation of American dieals. They and I disgaree about how you get there, but no where the "there" is.

That to me, is the great problem: people think that because you disagree on how to get there, you must also inhrently disagree about every bit of what "there" is. And they make the rather understandable and human mistake of pigeonholing American ideals to a specific real-estate and a bunch of people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Orange: I totally agree. Anti-American stands for being against Americans not the policies that the country was founded upon.

[GePap]

So an anti-American American is like a self-hating Jew?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Basically.

I'm not sure how many anti-American Americans there are though. If you look at che, he is against the government, not the people. I'm not aware of many Americans who hate the people of their own country.

(though I think being against the government and not the people sometimes can streach things a bit when the people agree with the government).

[Sava]

There's definitely more anti-French and anti-Canadian bashing that I see in other venues. Counter-Strike, for instance, has become a bastion of "Canadians are ghey". But that's to be expected with such an immature gaming community. Most of the people here are intelligent, somewhat mature people, and even though we might disagree at times, we still remain relatively civil. There are always going to be events in the world the affect people. 9-11 and Bush's war haven't changed me, or affected the way I interact with people in real life or online. I've always been an obnoxious 4sshole. If anything, the lower tolerance for crap that the moderators have shown in these times have helped me be less of an ass.

If it isn't 9-11 or the war, there's some other damn political mess that people will argue about.

I luv u guys!

[GePap]

I am not aware of many posters here who hate the American people either, even if they disagree with American politics.

(though I think being against the government and not the people sometimes can streach things a bit when the people agree with the government).

If governments in the modern world were on issue entities, perhaps but they aren't anymore. somene can support the governments foeign policy and hate their internal policy: does that make you anti-government?

People think too narrowly about these things. Honestly, I think very, very few people are actually "against" another state to a degree that they whish real harm to come to the people of that place, and those people that do I would call bigots.

[Zero]

Some forums have become pro or anti American, with whole groups breaking away from each other. It hasn't gone that far here I think but there are forums that are now totally onesided. Some posters have also undergone incredible transformations from cuddly jokesters to foaming rabid extremists of one kind or another.

I dont take these online arguments seriously. So hopefully no one is mad at me. I'd be willing to have a barbecue with a posert in RL right after we get into an arguement @ poly.

Hope Im not in no one's "to kill" list.

[H Tower]

I think Iraq more than anything else has the potnetial to kill the OT. 9-11 saddened everyone. the US going into Iraq pissed off everyone outside of the US. Just look at how many fewer posters we have here these days

[Ming]

AH again predicts the end of the OTF...



And how many times has it been now horsie...



The facts are simple... posting levels at there highest... more new posters every day...

And like always, some people leave...



You need a new troll horsie...

[Alexander's Horse]

Where did I predict the end of the OTF Ming? When have I ever?

[Ming]

Let's see... when I was added as a mod...

When modding got stricter...

When we cracked down on spam...

You bring it up every year like clock work...


You are just a one trick pony

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Calc II

Some forums have become pro or anti American, with whole groups breaking away from each other. It hasn't gone that far here I think but there are forums that are now totally onesided. Some posters have also undergone incredible transformations from cuddly jokesters to foaming rabid extremists of one kind or another.

I dont take these online arguments seriously. So hopefully no one is mad at me. I'd be willing to have a barbecue with a posert in RL right after we get into an arguement @ poly.

Hope Im not in no one's "to kill" list.

I agree. I'd happily meet IRL Sava, Gnu, Che, and all those other people I always argue against.