A few questions for fellow atheists

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogman

They always say they'll get back to me on it but they never do.

Damn! That's what they do to me too! I guess fundies are the same no matter what country or race...

I know people who honestly think that when judgment day cometh we will actually get to see the riders of the apocalypse descend from the heavens. Literaly. (which makes me wonder, if I can see them, will someone in China see them too? they're at the other side of the world...)



pathetiiiiic

[Frogman]

I've lost track. Who are the true atheists who believe there is no chance, no way, no how, that God exists?

I of course am not one. On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being atheist, and 10 having direct personal contact with God, I'd say I'm a 6.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Archaic
Because they attack us by trying to force their beliefs on us and upon others?
Because people often use their belief as justification for bigotry?
Because sometimes you just need to tell an idiot that they're an idiot?

That's appalingly ignorant of you. Most Christians I know don't have an "us vs. them" mentality that you seem to revel in. Who is "they"? Christians, or just the extremists that make you mad?

Please. If you have issues with fundies, that's fine, but most Christians would reject the idea that they are "attacking you" or forcing beliefs on you. That's just pathetic.

Sometimes I just need to tell a bigot that they're a bigot. In this case, it's you.

[Elok]

"Impossible"? Just because we can't explain them with science yet? Considering science has been able to explain all other 15 billion miracles ocurring in 15 billion religious and non-religious sites (and who knows what else it'll explain in the future...).
Rain and earthquakes in 4000BC were surely considered a miracle too...

Rain and earthquakes are common occurences, as are phases of the moon, eclipses, and most other things that have been given mythological attribution. What I refer to are a set of utterly anomalous occurences that have sprung up precisely in line with religious persons or events, or both. The difference should be perfectly clear.

As for outside miracles, my point was then you claim to follow the Christian faith which has a certain set of beliefs, yet if other religions have their own miracles proving (from your PoV, not mine) the existence of other beliefs then why do you assume Christianity is right? One thing is not believing, another is believing in a generic God (which granted may exist as I have said) and another is believing the stuff your parents told you, and who'se parents told them and so and so...

I follow Christianity because the Orthodox doctrine of the fall and the subsequent clouding of human reason is the only plausible explanation I have heard for the madness of evil in human beings, which, by the way, you still have not addressed. Why are we nuts?
I mentioned the miracles in the first place just to jerk you around, because your smug superiority-of-modern-man attitude irritates me immensely. Humans have lived on this planet for what, two million years? People are just as sullen, lazy, selfish, vengeful, spiteful, stupid and mean today as they have ever been, but because the people of today know about hydrogen and photosynthesis and the Salk vaccine and all that other wonderful stuff, we are better people than anyone who came before, and all their ideas are invalid as the ditherings of a bunch of primitives. Never mind that all we have accomplished was done by following their footsteps, that we inherited all we have from them(our legal system, our economy, almost all of our art and philosophy...), that they are our ancestors; no, they didn't have the scientific method. Let us all gather, point and laugh at them, huh? You're the one who needs to open his eyes, you arrogant...ahem.
*Deeeeep breath...*

yet it's energy which is channeled not by normal means as I said in my post. You can't discard the fact that miracles operate much the same way. I wouldn't know.
Is prayer not a way of challenging inner power? Do really look towards heaven when you pray or actually are you doing the same thing as meditating except with a figure of Christ in front of you?

I have meditated. I have prayed. The two are utterly different. Meditation has much the same effect as a good cup of tea: it calms, it invigorates the mind, it clarifies thought and banishes anger. Meditation is in its own way a gift from God, but not the same as prayer. Prayer has no seeming effect on your emotions immediately afterwards, and it's quite possible to think it doesn't work at all. I pray for wisdom at times. It would be pretty vain to say it worked, but I certainly feel more clear in my thoughts within a day or so later, even when I've forgotten about the prayer itself. But prayer, leaving out the prostrations, icons, and books, is little different from a one-sided conversation. Have you ever tried it sincerely? Or are you afraid it will work?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Elok

Well, other religions have miracles. I won't fight with them. If you know of any similarly miraculous occurences without any religious relation to them, please tell me.

I see you fail to understand the problem with your original point here. You claimed that these "miracles" are tied only by a common religion as some sort of evidence of the existance of God. However, if other religions have their own miracles, then your "common thread" becomes a complete non-starter. For the sake of this argument, exclude other monotheistic religions (particularly Islam and Judiasm) since you could say that they all believe in the same God (albeit with different interpretations). Hindus or Buddhists, for example, have very different belief systems that are not especially compatible with the Christian belief in God. If they have any miracles roughly equivalent to your Greek church example (and quite frankly, I don't know if they do), obviously the existance of scientifically unexplainable phenomena would have nothing to do with a common belief system and therefore you could not use God as an explanation. Or, you could, but then you'd have the burden of proof that the explanations given by these other religions are any less valid than your Christian God.

For the record, I'm not even a true atheist (closer to agnostic, really). I just hate seeing faulty logic offered up as some sort of evidence for the Christian God.

[BustaMike]

there are fifteen impossible occurences at fifteen different religious sites, and you insist it's fifteen different coincidental scientific anomalies

I would argue that there are hundreds if not thousands of similarly "impossible" occurances that happen all the time, totally unnoticed. Perhaps the reason people notice these is because they are religious sites.

As for that roof with all the trees, did it ever occur to anyone that maybe the strength of the trees and their roots may be supporting the roof?

Let me restate, just because we don't have an answer for something DOES NOT automatically make it a miracle.

From SMAC -

God has not been proven not to exist; therefor he must exist

That seems to be about the gist of your argument right?

It hasn't been proven that I'm not Jesus reincarnated right? Therefor I must be. Sheesh.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Elok

Rain and earthquakes are common occurences, as are phases of the moon, eclipses, and most other things that have been given mythological attribution. What I refer to are a set of utterly anomalous occurences that have sprung up precisely in line with religious persons or events, or both. The difference should be perfectly clear.

Earthquakes are not that common, and quite unexplained in 4000BC. Do you think those people knew about plate tectonics? I don't think so. If you lived in 4000BC and you felt an earthquake I'm sure you would have thought one of your gods got pissed off...

And if it happened precisely the month you forgot to do your monthly sacrifice perhaps it would seem "in line" with a religious belief.

Please understand what I'm getting at. Just because these linked annomalies exist, and science so far cannot explain them is not proof enough that god exists.

I follow Christianity because the Orthodox doctrine of the fall and the subsequent clouding of human reason is the only plausible explanation I have heard for the madness of evil in human beings, which, by the way, you still have not addressed. Why are we nuts?

Evil in human beings? Now you are just sounding like an angst-ridden teenage kid who's problems are all made up by himself. What evil? What is evil? Is it the absence of good? Is good the absence of evil? Have you ever thought that the concept of good would not exist if there wasn't this so-called evil? Like beauty, you wouldn't know what a beautiful girl looked like if you hadn't seen an ugly girl too. Where would your basis of comparison be? Ever thought that perhaps evil is just like many other thinks in life a state of nature, just as natural as good is?

Assuming there ever was a fall, and you have no evidence of that happening and if it did you could not meet the people before it, what makes you think human's reason was not clouded? Clouded by what? Considering the wealth of knowledge and reason produced by humanity since it is very pessimistic to assume we are left without reason.

I'm thinking you are the type of person who picks up the newspaper every day, sees the wars going on, sees the murders in the streets, the drug addicts and the child molesters and thinks that must be some standard of humanity. Do you know what the size of each newspaper would be if all the GOOD things were published every day? Every couple going on their first date? Every new child born to a happy mother? Every kid going to his first soccer game? Even in the most miserable third-world slum you will find happiness abound, and it is even more surprising since there would seem that these people should have nothing to be happy about.

Open your eyes. Life isn't so bad, and if your religion is influencing this perspective of your surroundings then it's really doing a bad job.

I mentioned the miracles in the first place just to jerk you around, because your smug superiority-of-modern-man attitude irritates me immensely. Humans have lived on this planet for what, two million years? People are just as sullen, lazy, selfish, vengeful, spiteful, stupid and mean today as they have ever been, but because the people of today know about hydrogen and photosynthesis and the Salk vaccine and all that other wonderful stuff, we are better people than anyone who came before, and all their ideas are invalid as the ditherings of a bunch of primitives. Never mind that all we have accomplished was done by following their footsteps, that we inherited all we have from them(our legal system, our economy, almost all of our art and philosophy...), that they are our ancestors; no, they didn't have the scientific method. Let us all gather, point and laugh at them, huh? You're the one who needs to open his eyes, you arrogant...ahem.
*Deeeeep breath...*

Again. You apparently have issues with this being a rotten and evil world. Deal with them.

I have meditated. I have prayed. The two are utterly different. Meditation has much the same effect as a good cup of tea: it calms, it invigorates the mind, it clarifies thought and banishes anger. Meditation is in its own way a gift from God, but not the same as prayer. Prayer has no seeming effect on your emotions immediately afterwards, and it's quite possible to think it doesn't work at all. I pray for wisdom at times. It would be pretty vain to say it worked, but I certainly feel more clear in my thoughts within a day or so later, even when I've forgotten about the prayer itself. But prayer, leaving out the prostrations, icons, and books, is little different from a one-sided conversation. Have you ever tried it sincerely? Or are you afraid it will work?

I was raised a catholic and it never worked. At age 17 I honestly decided it was superflous to my happiness and to my reason and decided to throw it away. And I've been so much happier and so much more enlightened since. Have you tried it?

BTW here's a little question:

If god really existed, why hasn't he manifested himself in a way which would shed all doubt about his existence?

I know what you are going to say: it's up to each and one of us to find god. Well, let's assume for a second that the christian god is the right one. What fault does an arab child have to not being brought up believing in jesus? How do you expect such a person to turn christian? Technically then, these people will not be "saved" yet the are no more evil or good than christians themselves. Is that the work of a merciful deity? Or is that the work of people who invent religions and find no better excuse to explain why there is no concrete evidence of the existence of god. I tend to believe in the latter.

What does god gain from all the religous wars, all the fanatics, all the hate caused by people disagreeing on who's deity is the right one? All he has to do is show up on Leno one night and that's it...even I'll convert.

Until then, I don't think so.

[GePap]

Until a Monotheist (Christian, Jew, Moslem) can prove to me somehow that the polytheist (hindus) or other religious thinking beyond theism (Buddhists) are simply and irrefutably wrong, I have no reason, other than personal conviction, to think they might be right. Since my personal conviction is that a single "deity" in the mold of some single creator is not rational, i will remain a atheist.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Frogman
Its like alien encounters. Science hasn't proved them, but many people swear to them. You can believe them or not.

Carl Sagan pointed out the parallels between demonic and alien encounters in The Demon Haunted World, an excellent book I recommend to everybody.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
That's very sad, and somewhat disturbing. Why is it you need to "fight" Christians? I thought the whole point of atheism was disbelief in God, not attacking those who do believe.

I don't attack Christians, all I want is to liberate them from mental shackles.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I don't attack Christians, all I want is to liberate them from mental shackles.

That seems identical to Christians wanting to liberate you from the grasp of Satan or something. What makes you different from, or let alone better than, them?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Elok
All I am saying is that, if there are fifteen impossible occurences at fifteen different religious sites, and you insist it's fifteen different coincidental scientific anomalies, you, my friend, are in denial.

There are a lot of problems with your assertion. First and foremost, you are assuming that these claims of miracles are genuine. In other words you are presuming that all possible natural causes, including frauds and false assertions, have been excluded. Now if you can kindly show me this is the case.

Originally posted by Elok
Didn't say the devil couldn't pull some funny stuff either.

You are again assuming Christianity is factual, which is what the issue is.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
That seems identical to Christians wanting to liberate you from the grasp of Satan or something. What makes you different from, or let alone better than, them?

Because I don't subscribe to any particular form of religious dogma? A lack of beliefs is not a dogma.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Because I don't subscribe to any particular form of religious dogma? A lack of beliefs is not a dogma.

That doesn't make a difference. Most of what I see in this thread is complaining about these "poor, dumb Christians" trying to proselytize you, and yet here you are talking about how you need to "liberate" them from their ignorance. It strikes me as the height of hypocracy that any of you would decry Christians for forcing their beliefs on you, yet talk about what are the best "weapons" to use against those Christians.

[Frogman]

Originally posted by GePap
Since my personal conviction is that a single "deity" in the mold of some single creator is not rational, i will remain a atheist.

That seems a bit harsh to me. I think a single creator is possible and rational in the face of the wonders of creation that we see. Add that to the anecdotal experiences since the dawn of history and God seems very possible if not likely in some fashion. I suppose then GePap that you are a true atheist and believe there is just not a God of any sort period. To me its not rational to be so sure threre isn't a God when you have to admit that there is much to the universe that we don't know and there are places in the universe where our understanding of physical laws is lacking (black holes).

I just played poker tonight. 5 card draw, nothing wild, trips to win. I keep a pair of 10s and draw a pair of 10s. A sure thing with only 4 players. I bet hard and smile as I lay down my tens. As I reach for the pot I hear not so fast. I lose to 4 queens. Damn, nothing in life is certain.