A few questions for fellow atheists

[DinoDoc]

Damn! How did I know this thread would turn into what it has? You people are predictable.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogman

God doesn't lend himself to scientific study, but that doesn't make Him unknowable.

How can you affirm 100% that he doesn't? You don't know him do you?

God reveals himself to people in many ways and many people will testify to the presence of God. You can say these people either make it up or delude themselves, but science is not the only way to gain knowledge. I think you are too quick to dismiss the power of revelation and direct experience.

How do you know those aren't crackpots, liars, or schysophrenics (however you spell that). Many people say they've seen Elvis and the Loch Ness Monster. Should we believe them too? Has god appeared to you? I know of nobody to which god has appeared, in fact I know nobody who knows somebody who has seen god. Those are not good odds.

You'd think that if he really wanted people to believe in him he'd already had manifested himself in various ways. I know what you're going to answer, it's a test to root out the faithful from the non-faithful. Funny but that's the same excuse every other religion gives to cover up a total lack of evidence of god's existance in our earthly realm.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogman

Your use of the word science to mean what your describing is a bit confusing. I would suggest laws of nature vs laws of science. Science does not really refer to the complex machinery of nature. The entry for science in the dictionary is long, with several slight differences, but I didn't find any definition to fit that use.

I understand your position. I bounced around from being an atheist, agnostic and antitheist. Now I'm a theist, but i still question. \

Well you understand what I'm saying. You can call it nature, it's the same thing I'm thinking about.

What else would you call a place where ghosts, demons, angels and God exist if not a spiritual dimension? Its my term for it. You might call it the realm of twisted superstition, but I like mine better. I question the existance of it, but there are people who testify to witnessing these phenomenon. People witness aliens too so you gotta be careful who you believe, but I can't rule them out for certain either.

1) We don't know if any of that exists
2) If it does we can't explain it either

so we can't really say its of a spiritual nature now, can we?

BTW some people forget the power of the mind, it's ability to twist truth, and its ability to do things which may seem incredible to others. Just as there are people who bend spoons with their mind, or predict the future by reading your hand, it appears to me some people are more gifted than others in their ability to exploit their mind's power. Add to this it is said we only use about 10% of our brain's potential and there we have it, there's so much of ourselves we don't understand and perhaps some people are more adept at using just a little bigger fraction of their gray matter. Perhaps in this way there is another source of mental "energy" which we have failed to measure or notice, and that it is the cause of so many miracles. This would go in line with the miracle theory since people of the same faith or group would presumably be able to channel this energy together.

Martial artists channel energy this way, people who meditate do also. I see no difference between this and prayer the only difference with prayer is that those people are pretty much fooling themselves on where that energy is really coming from...

then again, like everything, it's just a theory, mind you a more logical one.

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Master Zen


1) We don't know if any of that exists
2) If it does we can't explain it either

so we can't really say its of a spiritual nature now, can we?

If I'm talking about God, demons, angels or ghosts I think the term spiritual applies. Just because we can't explain something doesn't mean we can't name it.

Originally posted by Master Zen

You'd think that if he really wanted people to believe in him he'd already had manifested himself in various ways. I know what you're going to answer, it's a test to root out the faithful from the non-faithful. Funny but that's the same excuse every other religion gives to cover up a total lack of evidence of god's existance in our earthly realm.

Don't put me in that group. I don't know crap about what God's up to. Heaven doesn't sound all that great to me. I don't want to spend eternity singing how great God is. Whatever the truth is, no religion has found it yet.

There is science and there are all these anecdotal testaments. I agree that science is the best method for determining the truth, but you still end up having to deal with and explain all the weird crap people say happens.

Its like alien encounters. Science hasn't proved them, but many people swear to them. You can believe them or not. I think its a mistake to dismiss all these type testimonies without some consideration and probably just as big a mistake to believe them all on faith. So you end up believing a few of them even without the scientific support because they fall in line with your view of the world.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by curtsibling


Nice one!

You have utilised the ultimate weapon against christians...LOGIC.
They ought to save their minds before trying to save their 'souls'....

Also, I would mention to your mother that in history, no people have never tried to kill or conquer in the name of the moon.

Anyhoo, good call,
I respect your stance on this, Mr NeOmega.

Actually it was my brother who was arguing with her, he told me about it later. I haven't even talked to my mom in months, and don't care to. It's nothing personal, but I just don't feel like hurting my brain talking to an automaton of the cross.

Like I said, I avoid debating Christians anymore. There is no way to beat the argument "He is God". There is no reason to debate with someone who uses the Bible as a standard of proof. In fact I am kind of sick of debating period. I used to enjoy it, but eventually I figured out people will believe whatever they want, be it true or not. (As you probably haven't noticed, but I haven't been around OT for a while... and only wander in periodically)

[Cyclotron]

You have utilised the ultimate weapon against christians...LOGIC.

That's very sad, and somewhat disturbing. Why is it you need to "fight" Christians? I thought the whole point of atheism was disbelief in God, not attacking those who do believe.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Frogman

If I'm talking about God, demons, angels or ghosts I think the term spiritual applies. Just because we can't explain something doesn't mean we can't name it.

Don't put me in that group. I don't know crap about what God's up to. Heaven doesn't sound all that great to me. I don't want to spend eternity singing how great God is. Whatever the truth is, no religion has found it yet.

Thats the way to think . I guess we're more on the same wavelength than I thought...

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by cyclotron7

That's very sad, and somewhat disturbing. Why is it you need to "fight" Christians? I thought the whole point of atheism was disbelief in God, not attacking those who do believe.

Well, after years of missionaries and inquisitions, it's our turn to strike back!

Just kidding, I only like to argue alot.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Why is it you need to "fight" Christians?

They are boring and somewhat pathetic?

[Archaic]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Why is it you need to "fight" Christians? I thought the whole point of atheism was disbelief in God, not attacking those who do believe.

Because they attack us by trying to force their beliefs on us and upon others?
Because people often use their belief as justification for bigotry?
Because sometimes you just need to tell an idiot that they're an idiot?

[MRT144]

yeah, but then youre just being like them

[Archaic]

Originally posted by MRT144
yeah, but then youre just being like them

How so? If they're trying to force their beliefs on me, or use their beliefs as justification for bigotry, they quite frankly deserve to be shot down. And as for the being an idiot bit....well, quite frankly, anyone who thinks that PI is equal to 3 just because the bible said so (And it did. 1 Kings, 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.) IS an idiot and deserves to have that pointed out to them on a regular basis.

[Lincoln]

As usual you did not consider the rim of the vessel. The "thirty cubits" is the measurment of the vessel proper. The diameter of the "brim" is clearly ten cubits. That really should not be too hard even for an atheist to figure out.

[MRT144]

if you go out of your way to be a militant athiest your no better than a militant christian. but by all means if so zealot comes up to you, debate him into a hole

[Elok]

Originally posted by Archaic
Because they attack us by trying to force their beliefs on us and upon others?
Because people often use their belief as justification for bigotry?
Because sometimes you just need to tell an idiot that they're an idiot?

Well, having just been told that there are precise violations of newtonian physics naturally occuring for no reason at religious sites around the world and nowhere else, I'm not sure that I'm the idiot here. Be that as it may, I salute you on your moral logic. "They started it." That's just beautiful.

And as for the being an idiot bit....well, quite frankly, anyone who thinks that PI is equal to 3 just because the bible said so (And it did. 1 Kings, 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.) IS an idiot and deserves to have that pointed out to them on a regular basis.

Oh, please. Obviously he should have made a molten sea compassed about by 31.4195 cubits, right? Well, I apologize on behalf of my faith for the scientific inaccuracy. Never mind that a cubit is a unit of measurement based loosely on the length of one's forearm, and that the ancient Hebrews may or may not have had decimal points in their numbering system. This is still just inexcusable. Psht. Again, where are you people digging up these quotes? Is there some website somewhere providing lots of biblical nitpicking excerpts or something?

BTW some people forget the power of the mind, it's ability to twist truth, and its ability to do things which may seem incredible to others. Just as there are people who bend spoons with their mind, or predict the future by reading your hand, it appears to me some people are more gifted than others in their ability to exploit their mind's power. Add to this it is said we only use about 10% of our brain's potential and there we have it, there's so much of ourselves we don't understand and perhaps some people are more adept at using just a little bigger fraction of their gray matter. Perhaps in this way there is another source of mental "energy" which we have failed to measure or notice, and that it is the cause of so many miracles. This would go in line with the miracle theory since people of the same faith or group would presumably be able to channel this energy together.

I've had several psych teachers and professors tell me that the 10% figure is largely an invention of talk show hosts. And please tell me you are not claiming that palm-reading works. You might as well follow horoscopes, or fortune cookies. And, again, have you heard of thermodynamics? There must be energy going in to maintain a steady projection of outward energy. Old nuns and ascetics are not known for eating a big breakfast, nor could even thirty of them together gather enough energy to lift seventeen trees above their heads by any means for any period of time. Do you believe in any unsubstantiated malarky, provided it isn't theistic unsubstantiated malarky?