Rumsfeld Warns Syria

[Az]

Well Israel claims to be a liberal westernized democracy.

So shouldn't we hold you to a higher standard than the tin-pot dictatorships that surround you?

"They're evil, so let's cut them some slack"?

That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while!

LOL all you want, but it is true.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by el freako


Well Israel claims to be a liberal westernized democracy.

So shouldn't we hold you to a higher standard than the tin-pot dictatorships that surround you?

So that the tin-pot dictatorships don't gain a competitive advantage and end up being the only survivors of the era.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If Iran invaded with all their might right now, I'd probably laugh my ass off. That would put the nail in the coffin of the Bush dictarorship. With the American forces cut off from supply and surrounded, they'd be pretty screwed. Though they might be able to fight their way back to the coast. Good luck trying to reenforce them by sea with Iranian silkworms ready to sink them.

They would get cut to shreds. The airforce would love it, picking out nice big moving targets and obliterating them.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Azazel

"They're evil, so let's cut them some slack"?

No, more like - you claim to be good so we will hold you to it.

[Az]

Ahh, so if we went all "We're evil", noone will have a problem with us.

Great!

[el freako]

No it's just that we expect more from a democracy.

Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship.

This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Define "all their might?" - suicide battalions charging up the al Faw peninsula? I don't think we really give a **** what they do in the Zagros mountains, it's not key to our area of operations.

That´s an interesting point - would the US be mentally able to go through such a war, when the Iranians use "human waves" on a larger scale?

I mean, this article http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm says that during the Iran-Iraq war they used lots volunteers to conduct such attacks:

Quote from there:

"Ranging in age from only nine to more than fifty, these eager but relatively untrained soldiers swept over minefields and fortifications to clear safe paths for the tanks."

Even when the war is started by the Iranians, and not from the US side, wouldn´t such "human wave" attacks end up in a big slaughter of thousands of those people? I´m not talking about if this is justified (if they attack, then they should expect to take fire), but about the consequences on the morale of US troops and US citizens at home, especially when such things are widely covered in international media.

[Az]

No it's just that we expect more from a democracy.

Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship.

That's a poor comparison. A child is forgiven for his actions because he doesn't know their full effect. This is not the same with a government.

This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

So, why haven't there been any UN resolutions against the GOVERNMENTS? why haven't there been any demonstrations against them?

actually, the case is quite the same with other democracies as well. When the Russian troops are using heavy aritillery in civilian areas, no one is enraged, noone goes to a demonstration.

The only reason to call an action wrong, is because it will create suffering. The actions of the Israeli government pale in comparison to actions taken by others in the region. However, some "intellectuals" prefer to call Israel the rogue state, and legitimize it's destruction.

Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Azazel

Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid.

Perhaps its just a 'hate America' extension, and naturally higher profile in international media.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Azazel

That's a poor comparison. A child is forgiven for his actions because he doesn't know their full effect. This is not the same with a government.

Actually I think it's a rather good analogy - the people of a non-democratic nation can be forgiven for the actions of their despotic rulers because they have no say in them.
That cannot be said of democratic nations.

Originally posted by Azazel
actually, the case is quite the same with other democracies as well. When the Russian troops are using heavy aritillery in civilian areas, no one is enraged, noone goes to a demonstration.

Obviously you are getting a biased view of the news - there have been plenty of demonstrations in europe against Chechnya.

But then again I'm sure that 'europe is against us and anti-semetic' gets better ratings in Israel than 'europe also protests the plight of the chechens'.


The only reason to call an action wrong, is because it will create suffering. The actions of the Israeli government pale in comparison to actions taken by others in the region. However, some "intellectuals" prefer to call Israel the rogue state, and legitimize it's destruction.

Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid. [/QUOTE]

Israel is not being singled out - whay have you ignored the
people protesting against the treatment of downtrodden chechens, Zimbabwians, Burmese, North Koreans etc.

Methinks you are suffering from political myopia.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by el freako
No it's just that we expect more from a democracy.

Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship.

This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

I agree that we should expect more from a democracy, but there are several important limitations to this excersize, not the least of which is the temper of the majority in the democracy in question. Even more important is the situation that the democracy enjoys geopolitically, demographically, economically etc. The United States dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese in World War Two during a war where such a civilian toll was not remarkable except for the means in which it was achieved. Every major combatant in that conflict managed to kill civilians in gigantic numbers, and within that sort of environment democracies can be ruthless if they perceive a need.

Israel is in a constant state of low level warfare with a threat of major warfare made good in three conflicts that might have spelled the end of that state had they gone the other way. They occupy a fairly unique position geopolitically, and it's important to keep that in mind when trying to understand them (not that you aren't doing so).

[Az]

Originally posted by el freako
Actually I think it's a rather good analogy - the people of a non-democratic nation can be forgiven for the actions of their despotic rulers because they have no say in them.
That cannot be said of democratic nations.

I am talking about about the GOVERNMENTS. why is it natural to expect more from a democratic GOVERNMENT than from a a dictatrial one. I am not talking about the people of Syria, for example. (though I am sure they don't mind it too much). It's obvious why should we have the people of a democratic nation more accountable.

Obviously you are getting a biased view of the news - there have been plenty of demonstrations in europe against Chechnya.

Actually, we have european programming here, we're not detached from the outside world.

But then again I'm sure that 'europe is against us and anti-semetic' gets better ratings in Israel than 'europe also protests the plight of the chechens'.

No, actually, the leading tone in the press is either "The general european public lives in a bubble, and doesn't know what's going on, and their politicians are a bunch of hypocrites", or: "Europeans are right, we're wrong".

Israel is not being singled out - whay have you ignored the
people protesting against the treatment of downtrodden chechens, Zimbabwians, Burmese, North Koreans etc.

Methinks you are suffering from political myopia.

Right, I remember seeing "free Zimbabwe" in all the "anti-war" demostrations. .

Why are there palestinian flags in all the "anti-war" demonstrations? We've got nothing to do with this war, except having a slim chance of being on the recieving end of things.

[The Mad Monk]

Because the Jews are secretly behind everything, of course!

[Az]

After seeing people like Comrade Tribune, I think this is certainly true for a part of the people.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Because the Jews are secretly behind everything, of course!

Shhhhhh!