Revisionism and "Holocaust Denial"

[Jaguar]

Threadjack! +0

Back on topic for a little: CyberGnu, do you believe that the Holocaust occured? If yes, then why are you taking S Kroeze's side? If no, then I have no further questions. If somewhere in between, explain.

[GePap]

The IAEA is designed to further and monitor the peaceful use of nuclear energy. That is their job and in that they are much like the FDA, a group we have made responsible for monotoring, but for which monotoring was nevr meant to be the real purpose. The IAEA has not failed, because it was never trully meant to be some spy agency. If you guys want some strict monotoring agency, then create one who's sole task is to monitor, and not to also spread the use of peaceful nuclear energy.

[CyberGnu]

Edan: Would that be the same agency that in February claimed Iraq had nuclear weapons?

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Edan: Would that be the same agency that in February claimed Iraq had nuclear weapons?

Who claimed Iraq had nuclear weapons? Or maybe you mean nuclear weapons program? (Even then, the only concrete accusation I remember was against biological and chemical weapons).

But I think thats enough thread jacking.

[CyberGnu]

Jaguar: Of course the holocaust occured. I don't think there is a question about that.

Why shouldn't I be taking Kroezes side, though? He hasn;t denied the occurance of the holocaust either.

What he has argued is whether the US and the jewish community has used the memory of the holocaust for their own political purpose. Do you have an issue with that?

[CyberGnu]

Edan, you might be right, I don't remember exactly what they claimed. Whatever it was, it was embarrasing, though

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu What he has argued is whether the US and the jewish community has used the memory of the holocaust for their own political purpose. Do you have an issue with that?

When he gets his so called research off an anti-semitic hate site, claiming he did the research himself, I know I do.

http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1660310&highlight=source#post1660436

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Edan, you might be right, I don't remember exactly what they claimed. Whatever it was, it was embarrasing, though

Time will tell...

[CyberGnu]

Edan, I can't speak for Kroeze, so I don't know whether he did read the primary sources or not.

Whether they are featured on an anti-semitic hate site or not doesn't matter, however. Come on, you should know this - if I use a quote from the EB to support, say, the earth being flat, the problem lies in my interpretation or presentation, not with the EB.

So if there is something wrong with the primary source, then the primary source should be denied or refuted on it's own merit.

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Edan, I can't speak for Kroeze, so I don't know whether he did read the primary sources or not.

He directly copied and pasted from that website, implying that he had done the research himself (indeed, he says he never copies and pastes earlier in this thread), and you can tell he copied it because it was all identical - down to the punctuation marks and spaces of his bibliography - that doesn't happen when someone is typing them themselves, rather than copying and pasting.

Whether they are featured on an anti-semitic hate site or not doesn't matter, however

It absolutely does matter if thats where he's getting those sources from - or do you claim using any piece of "fact" on the internet is fair game? Is that what we're relying on?

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Jaguar: Of course the holocaust occured. I don't think there is a question about that.

Why shouldn't I be taking Kroezes side, though? He hasn;t denied the occurance of the holocaust either.

What he has argued is whether the US and the jewish community has used the memory of the holocaust for their own political purpose. Do you have an issue with that?

Now that we've established that, here's the more important question. (you can see that I like debates to be very linear.) What does the US have to gain from using the houlocaust for its "own political purposes." What political purposes are these?

Kroeze linked to a site that denied the holocaust and used it as a source, IIRC. But the last time I read this thread was a long time ago, so I don't really remember.

Edit: found it. He doesn't deny it, he says that the numbers were fudged.

[Edan]

DP

[CyberGnu]

He directly copied and pasted from that website, implying that he had done the research himself (indeed, he says he never copies and pastes earlier in this thread), and you can tell he copied it because it was all identical - down to the punctuation marks and spaces of his bibliography - that doesn't happen when someone is typing them themselves, rather than copying and pasting.

Or it could be that both Kroeze and the site copied from the same place...

I never got the impression that he doesn;t cut and paste: He's repeatedly said that he cuts and pastes verbatim.

It absolutely does matter - or do you claim using any piece of "fact" on the internet is fair game? Is that what we're relying on?

But this is not about the internet. This is about the primary sources. Have you checked the quoted books? Do the quotes on the wepage actually occur in the books? If you disagree with the statements in the quotes, your first action should be to make sure they are actually quoted verbatim. Leaving out or changing even one word can distort an entire quote.

Assuming the quotes are true, whatever they have been used for afterwards is completely irrelevant .

[Sirotnikov]

Hmm... Gnu supports the view point of S Kroeze who bases his "historical research" on a communist anti-semitic site. How surprising!!!

[Edan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Or it could be that both Kroeze and the site copied from the same place...

Including the bibliographies? Including punctuation and format and spacing? He copied it directly off that site, and he didn't even refute it (or reply) when I brought it up, he just left the thread.

I never got the impression that he doesn;t cut and paste:

He says he doesn't cut and paste from the net and said hes done this research on his own from primary sources.

My finding suggested to me that he did get his info directly off the net told me enough about his character to doubt him.

Assuming the quotes are true

Why should I do that?

Should I assume that every quote I find on the web is true? I don't think so.