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  • Originally posted by CyberGnu


    ?

    North Korea has the bomb? I was under the impression that they had a weapons program, which they recently took out of mothballs. While withdrawing from the NPT, btw, thus implicitly showing that the IAEA inspections apparently IS a deterrent to the development of nuclear weapons.
    hi ,

    reading the OT ones in a while would have brought the facts to ya

    they even have a couple ICBM's , .....

    what they are doing now is just going true a large "re-scaling" program , .....

    and if they keep it up the way they are going now , well we get war within 100 days there , .....

    the info below is a low count ( one or two weapons ) but it could be that there are as many as 24 , .....


    Since the 1950s, the DPRK has been proceeding with a nuclear development program. It seems that North Korea is engaged in one of two things. Either they are building weapons to give them up for a new relationship with the United States. Or the down side and very dangerous side is that they're trying to build-up a nuclear arsenal for deterrence.

    Some observers call it "diplomacy by extortion." They say the communist north is building atomic weapons in order to secure economic aid and special trade agreements with its neighbors and the West in exchange for curtailing its nuclear weapons program.

    Pyongyang maintains that it needs a deterrent to possible South Korean, Japanese and American military aggression against North Korea. But this argument has lost its credibility. The north has always argued that while they're interested in economic reform, they need to leverage the security threat because they're not certain that the intentions of the rest of the world are really benign in terms of negotiating with North Korea. The problem, though, is that since 1994 there is a record of engagement with North Korea by South Korean, Japan, the United States, Europe and Australia. It would be very difficult to survey all of these countries that have engaged North Korea and argue that they have not credibly communicated that their intentions are benign. So this argument that the north continues to put forward, while it still may be credible to them, is becoming less credible to the rest of the world.

    The nuclear program can be traced back to about 1962, when the DPRK government committed itself to what it called "all-fortressization," which was the beginning of the hyper militarized North Korea of today. In the mid-1960s, it established a large-scale atomic energy research complex in Yongbyon and trained specialists from students who had studied in the Soviet Union. Under the cooperation agreement concluded between the USSR and the DPRK, a nuclear research center was constructed near the small town of Yongbyon. In 1965 a Soviet IRT-2M research reactor was assembled for this center. From 1965 through 1973 fuel (fuel elements) enriched to 10 percent was supplied to the DPRK for this reactor.

    North Korea maintains uranium mines with four million tons of exploitable high-quality uranium.

    In the 1970s, it focused study on the nuclear fuel cycle including refining, conversion and fabrication. In 1974, Korean specialists independently modernized Soviet IRT-2M research reactor in the same way that other reactors operating in the USSR and other countries had been modernized, bringing its capacity up to 8 megawatts and switching to fuel enriched to 80 percent. Subsequently, the degree of fuel enrichment was reduced. In the same period the DPRK began to build a 5 MWe research reactor, what is called the "second reactor." In 1977 the DPRK concluded an agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency [IAEA], allowing the latter to inspect a research reactor which was built with the assistance of the USSR.

    The North Korean nuclear weapons program dates back to the 1980s. In the 1980s, focusing on practical uses of nuclear energy and the completion of a nuclear weapon development system, North Korea began to operate facilities for uranium fabrication and conversion. It began construction of a 200 MWe nuclear reactor and nuclear reprocessing facilities in Taechon and Yongbyon, respectively, and conducted high-explosive detonation tests. In 1985 US officials announced for the first time that they had intelligence data proving that a secret nuclear reactor was being built 90 km north of Pyongyang near the small town of Yongbyon. The installation at Yongbyon had been known for eight years from official IAEA reports. In 1985, under international pressure, Pyongyang acceded to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). However, the DPRK refused to sign a safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), an obligation it had as a party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

    In September 1989 the magazine JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY stated that North Korea "could manufacture nuclear devices in five years' time, and the means to deliver them soon afterward." In July 1990 THE WASHINGTON POST reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel.

    The Joint Declaration on denuclearization was initialed on December 31, 1991. It forbade both sides to test, manufacture, produce, receive, possess, store, deploy, or use nuclear weapons and forbade the possession of nuclear reprocessing and uranium enrichment facilities. A procedure for inter-Korean inspection was to be organized and a North-South Joint Nuclear Control Commission (JNCC) was mandated with verification of the denuclearization of the peninsula.

    On January 30, 1992, the DPRK also signed a nuclear safeguards agreement with the IAEA, as it had pledged to do in 1985 when acceding to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This safeguards agreement allowed IAEA inspections to begin in June 1992. In March 1992, the JNCC was established in accordance with the joint declaration, but subsequent meetings failed to reach agreement on the main issue of establishing a bilateral inspection regime.

    As the 1990s progressed, concern over the North's nuclear program became a major issue in North-South relations and between North Korea and the US. The lack of progress on implementation of the joint nuclear declaration's provision for an inter-Korean nuclear inspection regime led to reinstatement of the US-South Korea Team Spirit military exercise for 1993. The situation worsened rapidly when North Korea, in January 1993, refused IAEA access to two suspected nuclear waste sites and then announced in March 1993 its intent to withdraw from the NPT. During the next 2 years, the US held direct talks with the DPRK that resulted in a series of agreements on nuclear matters.

    It is estimated that North Korea has completed the nuclear fuel cycle from acquisition to reprocessing of nuclear fuel and is on the threshold of a nuclear weapons capability. Nevertheless, it is unclear whether it has actually produced or possesses nuclear weapons due to difficulties in developing detonation devices and delivery vehicles, which require high-tech and precision technologies. According to various sources of information, North Korea seems to have reprocessed enough plutonium to produce one or two nuclear weapons. In addition, sufficient plutonium for another six nuclear weapons remains in fuel removed from the reactor at Yongbon but stored under international supervision, under the provisions of the 1994 Agreed Framework. By taking possession of the 8,000 spent fuel rods in late December 2002, the North could conceivably begin producing plutonium-based bombs in as little as six months -- by late June 2003.

    In an announcement that shocked the world, Washington said on 16 October 2002 that North Korea had admitted to secretly developing uranium enrichment technology for nuclear weapons, in violation of the 1994 agreement with the US.

    Publicly available evidence does not permit an assessment of the extent of this uranium program, and there is a considerable range of uncertainty. It is generally agreed that North Korea has attempted to acquire technology related to uranium enrichment from sources in several countries, including China, Russia and Pakistan. It is also generally agreed that, compared to the plutonium program, the precise status of the uranium program would be difficult to assess using sources such as satellite imagery. In contrast to the large and distinctive plutonium production reactors, a uranium enrichment program could be dispersed and hidden underground. There are no credible public reports suggesting that North Korea has in fact produced nuclear weapons using uranium.

    By the end of 2002 North Korea said it was lifting the freeze on facilities frozen under the agreed framework between the United States and North Korea, including a nuclear reactor at Yongbyon. Furthermore, North Korea asked the International Atomic Energy Agency to remove its cameras from the Yongbyon facility. North Korea defied world opinion on 21 December 2002 by removing United Nations seals and cameras at a nuclear power plant suspected of making weapons-grade plutonium. North Korea tampered with surveillance devices the UN nuclear watchdog installed at the Yongbyong complex. The agency said the North cut most of the seals on equipment and tampered with cameras at the five-megawatt reactors. North Korea says the agency did not respond to Pyongyang's requests that it remove the equipment. The International Atomic Energy Agency said it was trying to keep communications open with Pyongyang. IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei said it was deplorable North Korea had ignored requests for talks.

    On or about 24 December 2002 North Korea moved fresh fuel to the 5MWe reactor. North Korea reportedly estimates that the 5-megawatt reactor could be up and running in one to two months, while the IAEA reportedly believed it could take longer. As of 26 December 2002 the IAEA reportedly estimated that North Korea will have the five-megawatt reactor operational by the end of February 2003. A senior South Korean official concurred with that estimate. "We believe it will take one or two months to restart the reactor," said the official, Chun Young Woo, director general for international institutions at the Foreign Ministry. The IAEA said North Korea could start removing about 8,000 spent fuel rods stored in a special pond at the Yongbyon plant. North Korea's purpose might be to move the spent fuel rods to sites around the country where they could be weaponized, in order to convince the US that there could be no pre-emptive strike. The plutonium reprocessing plant at Yongbyon could be ready to begin producing fissile material for bombs within a few months, according to the director general of the IAEA. By taking possession of the 8,000 spent fuel rods in late December 2002, the North could conceivably begin producing plutonium-based bombs in as little as six months -- by late June 2003. US Senator Joe Biden said he believed North Korea's restarting of the Yongbyon nuclear reactor poses a greater threat than Iraq. He said within months Pyongyang could have enough material for five more nuclear weapons. The incoming chairman of the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Republican Senator Richard Lugar, said Washington must actively engage its allies in the region.

    Western assessments of futher steps that the DPRK might take included asking the IAEA inspectors to leave the country, starting up the plutonium reprocessing line, formally withdrawing from the Nonproliferation Treaty, declaring themselves a nuclear power [with a `Korean bomb' intended to protect the whole of the Korean people by keeping the Americans from starting a war], resumption of long-range missile testing, and conducting an actualy nuclear test.

    bye


    edit ; PS , not to mention about the large amounts of other WMD's they have in stock , ......
    - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
    - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
    WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

    Comment


    • Siro:
      There's nothing evasive about my points to S Kroeze.

      To the contrary - he keeps evading huge parts of my posts which he feels uncomfortable to answer.
      Kroese: Please decide what encyclopaedias to consult, which bibliographies, which historical reviews!
      Perhaps you can teach me how to start a historical investigation?
      It is nice to notice that you have finally given some titles of books you consider to be reliable. Thank you!

      Siro: I don't have time to actually begin a scholarship level argument with you.

      If that is what you wish - I again state - I don't have the energy or time.
      Of course, if you had even a shred of integrity, you would either actually answer Kroeze, or accept his sources as-is.

      Instead, you continually answer every single post he makes with "your books are biased", and then refer to some TV show, a handpuppet production, Israeli newspapers or something equally relevant. While it does make me laugh, it also reveals the source of your problem: you really have no idea how to think critically about sources. Poor Kroeze tried to teach you, but you reply with juvenile denials and insults.

      I sincerely hope that university will cure you of this. Maybe the first couple of F's will jar you enough to understand what sources are all about.

      The IAEA has proven that it is unreliable on it's own. The whole goal of the IAEA is to monitor country's nuclear programs without invading them and using absolute force to inspect every little possible hideout.

      Obviously if a country is defeated, the victors can send anyone they like to discover nuclear weapon programs.

      IAEA should be able to do that without the need to actually invade rogue countries, but have clearly failed this point.
      The IAEA can only do what it is mandatet to do. Claiming this makes it "unreliable" is ridiculous. Less effective, surely, which the IAEA has addressed several times. The conclusion has always been that the discovery of clandestine nuclear programs falls within the jurisdiction of intelligence agencies, and apparently the UN body has not been comfortable about the UN having its own intelligence agency.

      And Jimi Carter has been making all kinds of statements as of lately, regarding cuba and arab nations iirc.
      Well, care to enlighten us? A few specific examples, perhaps?

      *The gnu betting service is now open, and is giving 2:1 odds of specifics not forthcoming*
      Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

      Comment


      • Face it - you're running out of arguments so you're trying to confuse logic.
        running out of arguments? you haven;t grasped the fundamentals of my first argument yet, so how could I run out? I could, perhaps, be running out of ways to explain it in terms I think you'd understand, but I still have a few more avenues I haven;t explored. One of the most effective ways of teaching in ftf session is the sokratesian way of leading the student along with questions. I'm going to try this in the vain hope that this might penetrate your mental walls.

        And your posts about the Israeli Intelligence are still moot. I've brought several examples when they have been proven correct and honest , and you contered that by bringing no examples of your own (of them lying) and saying: "well yeah, sure they CAN be accurate, but who knows if they always are?"

        huh?

        that is such a weak and stupid argument.

        I could easily say the same thing about the NYT: "sure, they can tell the truth if they want to. Still doesn't mean they are generally trustworthy".
        What is the purpose of an intelligence agency?
        What is the purpose of a newspaper?

        I'll get back to you when you've figured that out.
        Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CyberGnu
          North Korea has the bomb? I was under the impression that they had a weapons program, which they recently took out of mothballs. While withdrawing from the NPT, btw, thus implicitly showing that the IAEA inspections apparently IS a deterrent to the development of nuclear weapons.
          From what I understand, the nuclear program was never "in mothballs", it was merely well hidden. US intelligence believed that it already had one to two bombs by last summer. Indeed, when confronted with the accusation of a working nuclear weapons program, North Korea admitted it back in October two months before it expelled the IAEA.
          Last edited by Edan; April 6, 2003, 21:54.
          "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

          Comment


          • Panag, did you read your own post?

            It says that NK has enough plutonium to make one or two bombs, not that it has actually made them. Sure, getting weapons grade plutonium has always been one of the harder tasks in making a nuclear weapon, but that is only one of several daunting engineering issues.
            Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

            Comment


            • Edan, "mothballed" or "hidden and thus serverly retarted" are nuances, I think. the point is that withdrawing from the NPT (and consequently expelling the IAEA) enabled them to scale up their program to 1991 levels.
              Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

              Comment


              • The United States believes North Korea already has two nuclear bombs to complement its massive army, potent ballistic-missile force and stockpile of biological and chemical weapons
                http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030117-25255995.htm

                The North is suspected of already having at least one or two nuclear bombs, and experts say it could make several more within six months if it extracts weapons-grade plutonium from spent fuel rods at the Yongbyon facilities.
                · Pyongyang denies weapons plans· International condemnation of decision· ‘US aggression’ blamed for withdrawal
                "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                  Edan, "mothballed" or "hidden and thus serverly retarted" are nuances, I think. the point is that withdrawing from the NPT (and consequently expelling the IAEA) enabled them to scale up their program to 1991 levels.
                  Perhaps, but if there 1994-2002 levels were enough to produce at least one to two nuclear weapons, thats hardly makes the IAEA very effective, does it?
                  "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                    Panag, did you read your own post?

                    It says that NK has enough plutonium to make one or two bombs, not that it has actually made them. Sure, getting weapons grade plutonium has always been one of the harder tasks in making a nuclear weapon, but that is only one of several daunting engineering issues.
                    *gnu* did you read the side note's with it ?

                    its a "low count" , the high count is plus 24 , .....

                    not to mention of the other stuff they have , .....

                    and if they really need more bombs , well simple , put a team at work with the rod's from the powerplants and they should have about 10 bombs within 2 weeks , ......

                    bye
                    - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                    - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                    WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                      BTW, what happened to Jimmy Carter? since "we all know how trustworthy he is" I would like to see some of this supposed common knowledge.
                      Ah, yes, Mr. Jimmy "It's a Wonderful Life" Carter. Mister Gullible Goes to Washington. The guy who saw "the love of God" in the eyes of Idi Amin. Discernment incarnate, Wisdom personified.
                      (\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
                      (='.'=) Sponsored by the National Smurfmeat Council
                      (")_(") Smurf, the original blue meat! © 1999, patent pending, ® and ™ (except that "Smurf" bit)

                      Comment


                      • Edan: from Panags post:
                        On January 30, 1992, the DPRK also signed a nuclear safeguards agreement with the IAEA, as it had pledged to do in 1985 when acceding to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This safeguards agreement allowed IAEA inspections to begin in June 1992.

                        Prior to 1992 the IAEA wasn't present in NK, so how could they have prevented it?

                        BTW, panag, what is the source of your quote?
                        Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                        Comment


                        • Panag: I still don't see it. There is nothing in there thatn indicates that NK actually has a finished bomb.
                          Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                            Edan: from Panags post:
                            On January 30, 1992, the DPRK also signed a nuclear safeguards agreement with the IAEA, as it had pledged to do in 1985 when acceding to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This safeguards agreement allowed IAEA inspections to begin in June 1992.

                            Prior to 1992 the IAEA wasn't present in NK, so how could they have prevented it?
                            Prevented what? North Koreas program from the mid 90s onwards? Thats what I'm talking about.

                            The IAEA are far from a guarantee of a nuclear free state, given the way Iraq and North Korea have run rings around them.
                            "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

                            Comment


                            • Straybow: ?
                              Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CyberGnu
                                Panag: I still don't see it. There is nothing in there thatn indicates that NK actually has a finished bomb.
                                Except for US intelligence reports, the same reports that got the North Koreans to admit (quite suprisingly) that they had a nuclear weapons program.
                                "I read a book twice as fast as anybody else. First, I read the beginning, and then I read the ending, and then I start in the middle and read toward whatever end I like best." - Gracie Allen

                                Comment

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