Revisionism and "Holocaust Denial"

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by orange


you mean that mass genocide did not take place?

The guy I link says that nowhere near 6 million bodies have been accounted for, and that there were many, many problems with miscounting, double counting, and using past and present numbers of Jews in an area to fill in the gaps (ignoring immigration, natural deaths, and a low birth rate)

Of course they didn't recover 6 million bodies, many were cremated to ash! Didn't the allies recover most of the Nazi's documents though? AFAIK the estimates of the total number killed in the camps was based on the murderers' actual documentation, which they had failed to destroy before the war's end. Furthermore, during the Nuremberg trials the Nazis defendants didn't refute the number of victims, but instead accepted the numbers as essentially accurate.

[Zevico]

To debate with these people or read their 'articles' is to debate with:
a) those who wish to brainwash others
or
b) those who are brainwashed

There is therefore no point in doing so.

[Hurricane]

I am reading his text, but hesitate to argue against it since it is so ridiculous. He changes his stance and his facts from one passage to the other, which means that he does a good job of refuting his claims himself.

Examples.

chapter 3

We are further asked to believe that the Allies, who had a large network of informers all over Europe and a spy in the German leadership (Admiral Canaris, the head of the German intelligence), did not become aware of this gigantic genocide until the end of the war, for if they had known about the mass murder, they would have acted to stop it.

chapter 7

Starting in late 1941, the Jewish organisations in the allied and neutral countries inundated the world with an endless flood of gruesome tales about the extermination of the Jews in the parts of Europe controlled by Germany.

some quotes:

...The members of the Special Kommando who, according to the eyewitnesses, were responsible for removing the bodies from the chamber, would have collapsed at once, even if they had worn gas masks. Immensely great quantities of hydrocyanic acid vapour would have streamed into the open air though the open doors, contaminating the entire camp."

This snipped apparently tries to argue that the guards would have died when they opened the doors to the gas chamber. This is just plain and simple nonsense. Would it in that case not have been easier just to open a few cans of Zyklon-B in the middle of the camp and take out everybody in one short stint? It is all a matter of concentration. BTW, US gas chambers are also ventilated straight into the air, and I haven't heard anybody collapse because of that.

If there had been an extermination policy, virtually no Jew would have survived the camps.

BeBero already answered this.

The example of the Frank family illustrates that, while the Jews were indeed heavily persecuted and large numbers of them perished because of the bad conditions in the camps, there was no extermination policy because otherwise the whole family would have been gassed at Auschwitz on arrival.

Auschwitz was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp.

As the countless former Jewish concentration camp inmates who wrote their memoirs after the war are forced to explain how they managed to survive the "Nazi killing machine", they routinely ascribe their rescue to a miracle.

Again, the few strokes of incredible luck does not refute the fact. He stares at the trees instead of the forest. Many jews who survived were also working jews who sent the others into the gas chambers. They naturally feel enormously ashamed and guilty for that, and I would not be surprised if many have fabricated miracle stories instead of telling what they really did to survive, sending others to death instead of themselves.

In addition to burning alive, electrical current and steam, numerous other killing methods were described by the "eyewitnesses": Suffocating by pumping the air out of the chambers; quicklime; drowning; blood poisoning; burying alive; assembly line shooting. (See my book Holocaust or Hoax? The arguments, chapter five.) All these stories have fallen into oblivion. Only the gas remains.

Again, how they were killed does not change the fact that they were killed.

[Hurricane]

This guy has a serious scizofrenia problem. On the one hand he claim there never was a extermination program, on the other hand he says the exterminations did not happen exactly like history says today. I wish he made up his mind.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

I would liken this man to Hitler. It appears he's already written his "Mein Kampf"

[GePap]

The Germans so meticulously documented their acts (while endlessly using euphamisms to hide from themselves the reality of their barbarity) and huge arhicves were discovered that I find questioning whether the death camps were anything but absurd.

The weight of the documents, pictures, films and countless testimonials from survivors, liberators, perpetrators and collaborators is mindboggling.

Anyone who doubts the "rationality" of the acts is too intensely naive. Anything, no matter how morally repugnant, can be rationalized given the right notions. If to save humanity (or at least, your people and thier history) the utter annahilation of evil is needed, and evil is personified by a group of people, is it not rational to exterminate these people? What pity can be given? Should be given? They are evil-they must be destroyed....

I can say definitively to you Orange: this site and this guy are imminently ignorant, for only ignorance allows for this, ignorance or prejudice.

[Tolls]

"Suffocating by pumping the air out of the chambers; ... drowning... "

These two, and possibly one or two of the others, are documented in the footage of live experiments by Nazi scientists...so not a method for mass killing, no, but people were killed using these methods.

As has been pointed out already, anyone who uses the phrase "Zionist-controlled system of the Western democracies" and seems to mean it, is instantly placed on the Kook List.

[Dr Strangelove]

Roosevelt did know about extermination camps and considered using American bombers to destroy the rail lines leading to the camps. After agonizing over the possibility of this plan of action he decided against it because the damage done by limited strikes could be bypassed, and if the Germans were truely determined they would simply find a way around the damaged lines or another way of executing their prisoners. Bombing the camps was out of the question, B-17s weren't accurate enough to precision target the guard's barracks or the wire fence. Finally, he reasoned that an allied attempt to disrupt the "final solution" might have spurred the Nazis onward to finish the job more quickly.

[JohnT]

In the 1930's and 1940's it became policy for Germany, the country that produced Bach and Goethe, to harrass, enslave, and murder Jews. That's a fact - the camps are still there, the documents exist, the testemonials by both sides are irrefutable: From 1932-1945 Germany harrassed, enslaved, and killed millions of Jews merely because they were Jews.

It is irrelevant if some of the facts or numbers were exaggerated. As said: 1 million, 6 million - what's the difference? It doesn't matter that global (or US) sympathy re: the Holocaust lead to the creation of Israel in 1948.

You know, this man has no grasp on popular American sentiment and culture:

While the overwhelming majority of people in the West still believe that the official holocaust version is essentially true (even if they suspect that the figures might me somewhat inflated), they are thoroughly fed up with the eternal lamentation about Jewish victims and Jewish suffering.

Which explains the eternal popularity of Seinfeld. Though the author probably would've enjoyed the "You made out during Schindler's List!?!" episode. Actually, he probably would've listed it as evidence that "not even the common Jews can stomach the manipulations of their Zionist Masters"... or, how about "They keep us Christians in chains of guilt regarding the Holocaust while themselves using images of death to arouse themselves to fornification!"

The physical evidence is in Germany and Poland, Orange. You might want to go over there and check it out.

[Hurricane]

In reality, about 150.000 prisoners, probably just over half of them Jewish, died at the Auschwitz camp from all causes (diseases, starvation, exhaustion, old age, execution by shooting or hanging, etc.). This will be demonstrated by Italian historian Carlo Mattogno in a book due to appear in 2001 and exclusively based on German wartime documents.

So he is basing his "facts" on a book that is not published, throwing all other books in the trash.

Well, the book is out now (the web page apparently is quite dated). Here is some good response to it http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...e-to-mattogno/

I don't think I need to continue. I have read most of the pages and haven't seen anything which haven't been refuted by acclaimed historians.

[GePap]

The guy's ignorance can be seen in many ways:

One obvious flaw in his annalysis is failing to understand that the holocaust did begin with mass shootings, the work of the einzatzgrouppen in the East. Perhaps up to a million people were killed by these special action groups throughtout the East. When the Nazi's saw that the phycological drain on thier men was too high from this up close method of extrmination, theyd ecided to go with less personal mehods, since they were already experimenting with gas. they found CO to be inefficient, which is why they turned to things like Tabun, derived from pest control agents. If gassing is the most remembered it is because it seems to us the most barbaric and the death camps a place beyond our imagination.

[Sinapus]

The revisionist's jobs will become easier as time passes on. Survivors of the camps, people who liberated the camps, and all the other eyewitnesses are dying of old age.

[GePap]

He also seems to ginore that fact that the Holocaust hapenned in stages. The fact is that most of the killing occured between mid 1941 and mid 1943 (this is when the jews of the East and Poland die). Places like Treblinka and Sobibor did most of the killinmgs early on, with mass shootings, as I said above, the first tool. BY the time the allies could have reached any camps with airpower the nazis had already done most of what they did. The second big wave of Jews comes in 1944, from the West and especially from hungary, after the Horthy government tried to jump ship and the germans took over. Perhaps the allies could have bombed the lines to autszchwitz and birkenau, but first: the nazis would have had a large pool of expendable laborers to fix them quick: second, they had other facilities and methods at their disposal.

[Kropotkin]

It's always a interesting detail with those revisionists that they never seems to have thought about denying the historical existence of the Roman empire, native americans or anything else like that.

[Proteus_MST]

Here in Germany only few people doubt the Existence of the Endlösung and the gassing of Millions of Jews (regardless of how many Jews really fell victim to it) and those who doubt it are normally within the Neonazis.

As for the Concentraiton Camps:
They have been both, Working Camps as well as Extermination Camps. Those people who could work have been used mostly for hard manual labor (for example in Road Construction), those who couldn´t because they´d gotten too weak because of the forced labor or who were too old or to young to be useful where exterminated.
And it were often small troops of the jews themselves who had to carry the dead bodys out of the Gas Chambers (which were disguised as large Shower rooms).
Then they were carried to large Crematories.
As for the Ashes of the dead bodies it is said, that it also was used for things such as Road Construction and the like, whereas other Remains were used for other things (Gildfillings of the victims Teeth were melted and reused, and I think the hair of the dead bodies where also used).

Of course I can´t say for sure if these things really happened, because I haven´t been there, even my parents were just born in the last5 year of the war.
But the picture you get, mostly through the old films they show us in History lessons (for large parts old Propaganda material of Joseph Goebbels, which should show the Germans how subhuman the Jews are, but also scientific Documentations from Heinrich Himmler, which show his Experiments on jewish twins), sounds very plausible and therefore I have no reason to assume that the Extermination of jews has really taken place.