Mugabe is at it again

[Carver]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Troll.

.01/10

Not a troll, it's the truth.

The US record on human rights is horrible, especially under Reagan. The US was the prinicipal driving force behind the Afghan war, the Nicaraguan war, the Angolan war and others. Reagan supported aparthied. It was the US that kept Mobutu ( a horrible leader) in power, because he let us have free access to Zairean territory so that we could do things like destabilize Angola.

Reagan is responsible for over a million deaths throughout the world. He should go to a war crimes tribunal before Saddam does. Many of the rebel groups Reagan supported were little more than terrorists.

It just reconfirms that the definition of terrorism is highly malleable.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Reagan supported aparthied.

Can you come up with any real proof on this and not parrot out the propaganda that he refused sanctions on S. Africa, while not stating why he did so (btw, the reason was that he believed in constructive engagement with S. Africa, you know the same thing we are doing with China).

Many of the rebel groups he supported were little more than terrorists.

It just reconfirms that the definition of terrorism highly malleable.

Yes, you've almost streached it to its breaking point.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen


That's ad hominem in addition to being unrelated to the topic at hand, so try a better argument.

I certainly hope that this resurgence receives some official condemnation from everyone (I'd be even happier to see someone really kick Mugabe's ass).

No it isn't; I am pointing out that dictators and tyrants of much worse hue than Mugabe have been feted, lionised, fawned upon and doted over by the U.S. . Not any particular president, although the Gipper's grasp of reality was tenuous at best...

As for you n.y.e., sweetheart, old chum, your grasp of english seems limited. That dictators can grace the White House with their presence, does not mean that the incumbents of the White House are dictators. Given that I referenced the party favours shown to Doe, Mobutu, ul-Haq and others of their unsavoury kind, I would have though the meaning clear.

Must dash, the weekly America hate is calling. That's where we burn copies of Leif Garrett's records, American tan tights, throw Velveeta at the consulate and urinate on videos of 'My Mother, the Car'.

[Imran Siddiqui]

When you get a Canadian pissed at American bashing, then you really must have gone too far .

[Kirnwaffen]

No it isn't; I am pointing out that dictators and tyrants of much worse hue than Mugabe have been feted, lionised, fawned upon and doted over by the U.S. . Not any particular president, although the Gipper's grasp of reality was tenuous at best...

Ad Hominem extends to 'practice what you preach' arguments, which is exactly what you just presented. The foreign policy of the United States has no bearing on what leaders Chirac chooses to host, therefore making it irrelevant to that particular conversation.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
When you get a Canadian pissed at American bashing, then you really must have gone too far .

NYE is an albertan, and as such is a defneder of America extraordinaire

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Carver
Not a troll, it's the truth.

The US record on human rights is horrible, especially under Reagan. The US was the prinicipal driving force behind the Afghan war, the Nicaraguan war, the Angolan war and others. Reagan supported aparthied. It was the US that kept Mobutu ( a horrible leader) in power, because he let us have free access to Zairean territory so that we could do things like destabilize Angola.

Reagan is responsible for over a million deaths throughout the world. He should go to a war crimes tribunal before Saddam does. Many of the rebel groups Reagan supported were little more than terrorists.

It just reconfirms that the definition of terrorism is highly malleable.

The US record is horrible, until compared with all the other global powers. Not to mention that most of that record was racked up combatting a far more vile form of regime with a far worse record on human rights. What was it that Churchill said...?

Backing Muslims to fight the Red Army in Afghanistan was bad how?

Reagan was not the only part of the American government, although some would like to pretend otherwise. During his term sanctions were brought against SA, although he did not approve of them. Geez, what a dictator!

re War Crimes charges. Sure. Line up Gorbachev, Thatcher, Deng, etc. It would be a good show, if it were consistent.

re terrorism. Pfft. How many airliners blown up by American backed forces? How many school buses? None, or near none. Please don't cloud the real issue about terrorism by equating Muslims who fire stingers at Russian attack helicopters with Chechyns who hold theatres full of civilians hostage.

[chequita guevara]

Ad hominem is an attack the messenger argument. Get your terms straight.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
re terrorism. Pfft. How many airliners blown up by American backed forces? How many school buses? None, or near none.

At least two airliners, including one directly shot-down by the US. The other was a Cuban airliner which was blown up by Cuban-American terrorists. The man behind the bombing lives safely in South Florida today. The US bombed several buses in the Kosovo war and just bombed a bus full of civilians in Iraq (heading towards Syria) yesterday. Granted, this really doesn't come close to what Islamic terrorists have done.

On the other hand, our allies have slaughtered entire villages, depopulated whole regions. When it comes to evil in the world, Mugabe is very low down on the list, and we are very high on it. That fact that we aren't alone hardly mitigates that fact. We're supposed to be the good guys, not just another group of bad guys.

[molly bloom]

The thread begins with an American pointing out Mugabe's and Zimbabwe's abysmal human rights record. Another American (rhetorically, I imagine) asks if Chirac didn't just recently host Mugabe.

The inference being that Chirac is somehow morally or intellectually, or just 'a la mode francaise' deficient at not recognising what an ogre has sat down to lime tea and madeleines with him.

I then wonder if the same doesn't apply to all the residents of the White House who failed to notice the bad smells given off by the likes Jimenez, or Doe, or Diem, or Shah Reza Pahlavi....

It seems invidious to single out M. Chirac, as I pointed out, when so many more extraordinary defenders of human rights have had tours of the Lincoln bedroom.

'NYE is an albertan, and as such is a defneder of America extraordinaire. '

A squarehead. That figures.

[Imran Siddiqui]

che:

Ad hominem

\Ad hom"i*nem\ [L., to the man.] A phrase applied to an appeal or argument addressed to the principles, interests, or passions of a man.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by notyoueither

re terrorism. Pfft. How many airliners blown up by American backed forces? How many school buses? None, or near none. Please don't cloud the real issue about terrorism by equating Muslims who fire stingers at Russian attack helicopters with Chechyns who hold theatres full of civilians hostage.

'Tell me about the results of that car bomb going off, the unsuccessful assassination attempt that ended up killing 80 people. What was the result?

The CIA was training counterterrorist people to retaliate against our enemies over there. One of the people that was identified as a desirable target was Sheik [Mohammed Hussein] Fadlallah, who was the spiritual leader of Hezbollah and who had been alleged, rightly or wrongly, to have blessed one of the suicide bombers who operated against us.

The CIA has taken the position that the bombing in west Beirut that was directed against Fadlallah was carried [out] by ... people who weren't actually operating on our orders. However, it's very clear that we made it apparent to the people that we were working with that Fadlallah was a meddlesome priest, that we should get rid of him, that that would be looked up favorably.

The bombing took place in a public square when the mosque let out, and when it was thought that Fadlallah would be coming through. In effect, you had hundreds of people who were leaving the Muslim equivalent of church. More than 80 people were killed. The remark at the time was that everyone was certain it was a CIA operation, because everybody got killed except the target.'

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/interviews/hougan.html

Nearly not 80 innocent people killed. Only, not nearly enough.

[Kirnwaffen]

Ad hominem is an attack the messenger argument. Get your terms straight

Ad hominem (tu quoque) - The argument is invalid because the person making it does not 'practice what they preach'.

It seems invidious to single out M. Chirac, as I pointed out, when so many more extraordinary defenders of human rights have had tours of the Lincoln bedroom.

Indeed it does, but the way in which you're argument was made appeared to justify Chirac's behavior and state that he is above criticism by Americans simply because past administrations have actively sponsored worse dictators.

1) If your intention is to justify Chirac's behavior in regards to Mugabe, do it without relying on fallacious reasoning.

2) If that isn't you're intention, clarify you're argument.

3) The policies and arguments of the United States, or any nation for that matter, have nothing to do with Chirac unless cited as an example. Thus far, you have only cited them as reasons that Americans should not criticize France.

[chequita guevara]

The railway bombing in Bologna which killed around 80 people was done by a group funded by the CIA and the Italian military. The details of Operation Gladio that have come out in the past decade illuminate quite well the length to which the US and it's toadies will go.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


At least two airliners, including one directly shot-down by the US. The other was a Cuban airliner which was blown up by Cuban-American terrorists. The man behind the bombing lives safely in South Florida today. The US bombed several buses in the Kosovo war and just bombed a bus full of civilians in Iraq (heading towards Syria) yesterday. Granted, this really doesn't come close to what Islamic terrorists have done.

On the other hand, our allies have slaughtered entire villages, depopulated whole regions. When it comes to evil in the world, Mugabe is very low down on the list, and we are very high on it. That fact that we aren't alone hardly mitigates that fact. We're supposed to be the good guys, not just another group of bad guys.

Shot down by the USAF? KAL is coming to mind, but I doubt it was the USAF. Cuban-American paid by the US government to do the deed? Anyways, show me the civies targetting other civies. That is terrorism. I will condemn that.

The British did some pretty nasty stuff with weapons in the last win or die conflict they were in. Is the British government today 'evil'? How about the state of Great Britain? That was then, this is now.

And once more, please show us the post Cold War examples of how bad the USof A is.