Do you find yourself having to remind yourself not to support the plucky underdog?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by David Floyd
So I feel sorry for myself.

That seems to be a common theme for you.

[Berzerker]

Kropotkin -

Berz: Look up Umeå on a map...

I don't want to, waaaaaa.

Or let look at this this way:
CO2 Emissions in metric tons per US$10,000 GDP and per person in 1998:

And you don't think the fact we in the USA have to drive more miles to operate is a factor? See my response to UR.

UR -

The US has 5% of the world's population and uses 20% of the total energy.

Does the US produce 5% or 20% of the world's goods? You know, a farmer who feeds 1,000 people or a truck manufacturer uses more energy than the average person, so comparing the energy consumption of people who produce goods for consumers around the world to the energy consumption of the consumers and 3rd world people's who get by with subsistence farming is illogical.

[David Floyd]

Oh, you poor dear you, boo hoo ****ing hoo. I'll bet they even took an extra big chunk of your paycheck this week, too.

Yes, actually, relative to what I make - I got ****ed out of $400+ last month for no appreciable return.

Just because you don't see anything wrong with forcing me to pay for organized murder doesn't make it right.

[Frogman]

Well David, you're an idiot. By idiot I mean you don't know what your talking about. You pay taxes to support a government. You have the right to vote for your representatives and leaders in that government. You have the right to voice your discontent when you disagree. You don't have the right to a refund.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Yes, actually, relative to what I make - I got ****ed out of $400+ last month for no appreciable return.

Just because you don't see anything wrong with forcing me to pay for organized murder doesn't make it right.

Apparently, in addition to displacing Speer as the whining self-pity champion of Apolyton, you can't do math either. Tell me, how much extra, not considering differences in hours worked or pay, how much extra did you pay specifically related to this war?

Because everybody else's tax liabilities before and after are based on the same exact formulas, so whining in self-pity about how you're having to foot the bill, while other people are bleeding and dying, is beneath contempt.

[David Floyd]

Tell me, how much extra, not considering differences in hours worked or pay, how much extra did you pay specifically related to this war?

Extra compared to what? Extra compared to what I should morally be paying? If that's the question, then every penny is extra. If extra is what am I paying outside of what I normally pay, then the answer is 0. But that doesn't mean that my tax dollars aren't funding the war, nor does it mean that my future tax dollars won't be funding the effects of the war.

Because everybody else's tax liabilities before and after are based on the same exact formulas, so whining in self-pity about how you're having to foot the bill, while other people are bleeding and dying, is beneath contempt.

But I am having to foot the bill, regardless of whether or not I'm paying "extra". Or are you arguing that I am in no way funding the war?

Further, I understand that people are bleeding and dying. However, the US Army is an all-volunteer force - these people also knew the recent history of the military, and how aggressive it has been and is, especially with the current Command in Chief. This isn't to say that the government is morally justified in sending these people to fight, based upon the fact that they volunteered, because these people didn't volunteer to go to Iraq. They still should have known it was a possibility, based upon the recent moral bankruptcy of the US leadership. Further, if these people didn't consent to the war, they should have refused to go.

Frogman,

Well David, you're an idiot.

Well, judging by the fact that MtG posted after you, and did not say anything about this personal attack, and judging by his own personal attack, I must conclude that rules against personal attacks are no longer in force. Therefore, I'll just go ahead and tell you that if your ignorant ass wants to debate with me, go ahead and keep talking, if you think you can handle it, Nancy. Otherwise, your village is looking for you, so just fly away home. GO GO GO!

You pay taxes to support a government.

Duh. This doesn't address the morality of taxation, nor does it address the obvious question that arises - does this mean government is morally justified in doing anything with my tax money? I didn't think so.

You have the right to vote for your representatives and leaders in that government.

True, but on a sidenote, before I was 18, I was working and paying taxes, yet had no say. Was this moral too?

You have the right to voice your discontent when you disagree. You don't have the right to a refund.

Why not? Further, because my discontent is in the minority, does this mean government has the right to take whatever it wants from me?

[Alexander's Horse]

I'm beginning to wonder if the MTG/Floyd thing is one of those "plucky underdog" situations............

[David Floyd]

Eh, MtG doesn't scare me. He can ban me, but he's gonna get about as far debating me as anyone else will.

[Jon Miller]

I am amazed that people here think that people in the US are bloodthirsty

no wonder you don't like us

Jon Miller

[Alexander's Horse]

I think Floyd is giving plucky underdogs everywhere a bad name.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I'm beginning to wonder if the MTG/Floyd thing is one of those "plucky underdog" situations............

The whining self pity coming from Floyd seems to remove the natural desire to support the underdog.

[Alexander's Horse]

exactly

[Frogman]

David, I in no way would stoop to a personal attack. I defined my use of the word idiot and I just tend to use it to refer to people who appear to be talking out of area of knowledge.

Governments tax their people to pay for the services provided. You don't get something for nothing, thats not immoral. Taxes are as old as government and if your going to argue an anarchist platform, you really don't know what you're talking about. Defense and security of the people is the chief responsibility of the government. Sure leaders can make mistakes, they can even make immoral decisions, but if they do we can protest and ultimately vote in new leadership. The government isn't they, its us.

Since defense is the primary obligation of the government, and Saddam and Iraq are considered a threat by our president, we are at war. Thats not immoral and I don't think anyone will argue that Saddam is not a threat to peace. Going to war is a judgement call, you can be against it, but it still doesn't mean that citizens have the right to withhold taxes because they disagree. I'd like to see what system of government you could come up with where this would work. The immoral thing would be forcing me to pay for your security when you won't pay for your own.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Eh, MtG doesn't scare me. He can ban me, but he's gonna get about as far debating me as anyone else will.

I wasn't aware that parroting "it's immoral, it's immoral" to everything you find inconvenient, coupled with pity-parties, was debating. You've even admitted you're "too lazy" to actually do something about your principles (like move to some island or start your own libertarian-anarchist paradise ), you'd rather just ***** about what you don't like.

So I don't take you in the slightest seriously, there's no debate, because there's nothing there. It's like an entire department store with no merchandise, but the entire shop space is taken up by the complaint department.

If you give me a reason to ban you, I will. If you don't, I won't. I don't think I've ever banned Speer. I pretty much lump you in the same category.

[Alexander's Horse]

Hmmm, maybe Floyd is a "plucked" underdog and that's why he doesn't attract the normal "plucky" sympathy quota....