Harsh War Crtics: Values of the follwing needed for your apology after US/UK victory

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ramo
If the US is actually in this for democracy and human rights, then it absolutely ought to support an independent Kurdistan.

When UN tried something like that last time, i.e., making new countries, it ended up in a really bloody mess.

There's no gaurantee that Turkey and/or Iraq will just move armies into the place even if the UN agrees to such an endeavour.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Well, this thread is ruined. Kinda sad, really; I'm always interested to see how Z's serious threads turn out...

Nah, it'll be revised for those we love sometime tommorrow. Problem here is the immediate success of the war and the following structure of a new Iraq are two totally different considerations.

Most around here admitted they'd like to see Saddam replaced, but SCREAMED that war would bring too much death to justify it. If the legendary 500, 000 lives figure is a monolith of a lie in the end, these cowards can unfortunately fall back and say it was really the forced regime change they opposed.

You see, some love the idea of national sovereignty to no end; readily admitting leaders are committing horrible crimes, yet defending their rights of power over the people they committ them on. Comically enough, these people also believe an outside nation seeking to stop these horrific oppressions with its own use of force is committing a humanitarian crime. (Here's a tip - never go to coffee with your friend if his Serbian buddies are going to be there [and no, he isn't at all a complete nutcase like his friends ]

Others see doubt in post war restructuring of a better life, which is a fair and responsible consideration. Problem is, very few of them frequent here.

IT'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER VIETNAM

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Zylka
Most around here admitted they'd like to see Saddam replaced, but SCREAMED that war would bring too much death to justify it. If the legendary 500, 000 lives figure is a monolith of a lie in the end, these cowards can unfortunately fall back and say it was really the forced regime change they opposed.

You see, some love the idea of national sovereignty to no end; readily admitting leaders are committing horrible crimes, yet defending their rights of power over the people they committ them on. Comically enough, these people also believe an outside nation seeking to stop these horrific oppressions with its own use of force is committing a humanitarian crime. (Here's a tip - never go to coffee with your friend if his Serbian buddies are going to be there [and no, he isn't at all a complete nutcase like his friends ]

Ah yes, the demonisation of your opponents, the ridiculous painting of a rhetorical caricature, the intentional omission of details, the obfuscation of the lack of any real meaning by use of tortured English, and the wanton committing of logical fallicies.

[Spiffor]

I intend to admit I was wrong if the following ensures :

- minimal casualties. Civilian casualties bother me more, but I also hope there will be minimal casualties within US/UK and Iraqi troops. Should the surrender tactics not work, and should the war be a slaughter between the militaries, I wouldn't be eager to apologize.
Casualties due to illnesses or famine will be accounted for in my appreciaition of the war.
I'm opposing the war mostly because I fear it'll turn out in tens of thousands dead. If the US/UK manage to prove my pessimistic views false, I'll thank them.
In short, minimal casualties is the biggest element in the balance.

- not letting Civilians believe they can now revolt against Saddam, and letting them being destroyed by the army, for the sake of a rebellious city not being "a military target". In short, no Warsaw. It is a new element, but I fear many Civilians will be killed in Basra, now that it isn't a "military target" anymore

- AngloAmerican troops treating the Iraqis with respect, and not behave "like in conquered land" (French saying, which expresses how people behave when they see the lack of opposition the 'welcoming' population can show against them - it often applies to tourists or invading troops)
In short, no bigotry, no proselytism, no disrespect, not too much flag waving because "the Iraqis should be thankful". I have been very pleased at the order not to replace the Iraqi flag by an American flag in Um Qasr.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was it for the short term thanks.
I willingly do not implement the joy of the Iraqi people at the sight of American troops nearby, because we'll only get pictures of it (most will thank the US to have ousted Saddam, and the few pictures of angered Iraqis will simply not fit).

Now, even if I could have thanks to the US/UK if the military campaign goes well, I will be able to retract them if the reconstruction is botched. I value most :

- Most importantly, I will judge about the hate in the Arab countries against the US. My strongest long-term fear in this issue is the raised terrorist threat, because of a raise in the population's antiamericaism (which will fuel terrorism with more money and more manpower).
I do not want another Sept. 11 happening, and I fear the general direction of the Bush admin is only making it more likely. I hope the Arabs will think "look how much good they have done to the Iraqis" but I strongly doubt it. But if they are successful, kudos !

- A good economic reconstruction is very important. Iraq has a big economic potential, with its water, its agricultural possibilities, its oil fields. A quick reconstrcution of the agriculture, to avoid Iraq being dependent of foreign countries (the US ) for its food, should be the priority.

- establishing a supported regime in Iraq. The puppet regime must convince the Iraqis it is way better than the former, and that it is useless to fight for the interests of their faction (in short, no civil war, no looming civil war). The US/UK should give their puppet government some leeway not to support their interests always to avoid open struggle. In the past, American puppet regimes were terrible because of their paranoia against the commies. I hope the new puppet will not be paranoid against the islamists, otherwise it could become ugly.

- Hvaing a long term goal of Democracy and Independance in Iraq, and taking action for these goals. If the US want to install a puppet regime that'll serve its interests as long as possible, making Iraq dependant on the US (for food, for contractors, for military protection etc.) can only lead to a disaster IMHO.

Those were the long term thanks. If the US/UK manage to do this, no matter how imperialistic this war was, you can expect me to shout "YAY Hawks !" in the forum if I'm still around here at that time.

I am currently hoping the US/UK armies, albeit doing the wrong thing (an imperialistic war) are doing it right, with minimal casualties and maximal respect for the Iraqis. They seem to really want to do it right.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Ah yes, the demonisation of your opponents, the ridiculous painting of a rhetorical caricature, the intentional omission of details, the obfuscation of the lack of any real meaning by use of tortured English, and the wanton committing of logical fallicies.

You know... that candle you used to burn - really cried a thousand poets anguish for the people of the Western tortured world. Care putting it back up?

I don't know what specific category of opposition to the war you were in, but I believe it included the 500, 000 casualty claim. I'm expecting an apology at least for that, and we'll figure out more by analyzing a few of your always insightful and well respected "THE US WANTS FREE REIGN OVER THE WORLDS SAND" type past fears.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I intend to admit I was wrong if the following ensures :

- minimal casualties. Civilian casualties bother me more, but I also hope there will be minimal casualties within US/UK and Iraqi troops. Should the surrender tactics not work, and should the war be a slaughter between the militaries, I wouldn't be eager to apologize.
Casualties due to illnesses or famine will be accounted for in my appreciaition of the war.
I'm opposing the war mostly because I fear it'll turn out in tens of thousands dead. If the US/UK manage to prove my pessimistic views false, I'll thank them.
In short, minimal casualties is the biggest element in the balance.

- not letting Civilians believe they can now revolt against Saddam, and letting them being destroyed by the army, for the sake of a rebellious city not being "a military target". In short, no Warsaw. It is a new element, but I fear many Civilians will be killed in Basra, now that it isn't a "military target" anymore

- AngloAmerican troops treating the Iraqis with respect, and not behave "like in conquered land" (French saying, which expresses how people behave when they see the lack of opposition the 'welcoming' population can show against them - it often applies to tourists or invading troops)
In short, no bigotry, no proselytism, no disrespect, not too much flag waving because "the Iraqis should be thankful". I have been very pleased at the order not to replace the Iraqi flag by an American flag in Um Qasr.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was it for the short term thanks.
I willingly do not implement the joy of the Iraqi people at the sight of American troops nearby, because we'll only get pictures of it (most will thank the US to have ousted Saddam, and the few pictures of angered Iraqis will simply not fit).

Now, even if I could have thanks to the US/UK if the military campaign goes well, I will be able to retract them if the reconstruction is botched. I value most :

- Most importantly, I will judge about the hate in the Arab countries against the US. My strongest long-term fear in this issue is the raised terrorist threat, because of a raise in the population's antiamericaism (which will fuel terrorism with more money and more manpower).
I do not want another Sept. 11 happening, and I fear the general direction of the Bush admin is only making it more likely. I hope the Arabs will think "look how much good they have done to the Iraqis" but I strongly doubt it. But if they are successful, kudos !

- A good economic reconstruction is very important. Iraq has a big economic potential, with its water, its agricultural possibilities, its oil fields. A quick reconstrcution of the agriculture, to avoid Iraq being dependent of foreign countries (the US ) for its food, should be the priority.

- establishing a supported regime in Iraq. The puppet regime must convince the Iraqis it is way better than the former, and that it is useless to fight for the interests of their faction (in short, no civil war, no looming civil war). The US/UK should give their puppet government some leeway not to support their interests always to avoid open struggle. In the past, American puppet regimes were terrible because of their paranoia against the commies. I hope the new puppet will not be paranoid against the islamists, otherwise it could become ugly.

- Hvaing a long term goal of Democracy and Independance in Iraq, and taking action for these goals. If the US want to install a puppet regime that'll serve its interests as long as possible, making Iraq dependant on the US (for food, for contractors, for military protection etc.) can only lead to a disaster IMHO.

Those were the long term thanks. If the US/UK manage to do this, no matter how imperialistic this war was, you can expect me to shout "YAY Hawks !" in the forum if I'm still around here at that time.

I am currently hoping the US/UK armies, albeit doing the wrong thing (an imperialistic war) are doing it right, with minimal casualties and maximal respect for the Iraqis. They seem to really want to do it right.

Putting your balls out to such degree is class

The humanitarian outcome of the war itself is what I've gauged, which would make for severe ass kissing from a good portion of this forums critics if answered truthfully.

Obviously enough, a functionally restructured Iraq will be of issue years down the road. I personally have faith that the occupational forces will secure a better life for the Iraqi people almost immediately, but am uneasy at the prospects of introducing democracy; how long before it is stable to work.

Anti war people: Is "the devil you know" your case, or do you trust the western world to rebuild a BETTER Iraq?

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


When UN tried something like that last time, i.e., making new countries, it ended up in a really bloody mess.

There's no gaurantee that Turkey and/or Iraq will just move armies into the place even if the UN agrees to such an endeavour.

What odds are you willing to place on either of those scenarios? You honestly think they would do something that incredibly suicidal - ESPECIALLY a twice crushed Iraq? I agree that there is no guarantee as well... somewhere along the same lines that there is no guarantee space maggots will do it instead.

Ok, enough heckling. Seriously though, what likelihood would you give to your situation? I tend not to cite possible scenarios as argument without a good 1:5 at the very most. Anything else seems like fear mongering to push ones own argument

[Jaakko]

Zylka's been hitting the needle again...

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Zylka's been hitting the needle again...

You won't be able to salvage too much dignity saying those things when the people of Iraq are cheering US soldier arrivals, you wacky guy!

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Jaakko
Zylka's been hitting the needle again...

On second look... you know, that personal insult hurt. Calling me an IV junkie isn't a fair thing to do, especially considering I've never touched a needle in my life. My wonderful uncle died of an IV od, so I must also thank you for stirring those memories.

Anyway, I've been saving this personal insult out of respect - but someone in chat told me you were caught having sexual intercourse with a dog when you were young?

Looks like Jaako's been ****ing his dog again...

[Serb]

You won't be able to salvage too much dignity saying those things when the people of Iraq are cheering US soldier arrivals, you wacky guy!

You're smoking too much Zylka.

"the people of Iraq are cheering US soldier arrivals, "


Stop smoking whatever you're smoking now before it's too late. Consider your fantasies you're pretty close to overdose limit.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Serb
You're smoking too much Zylka.

"the people of Iraq are cheering US soldier arrivals, "


Stop smoking whatever you're smoking now before it's too late. Consider your fantasies you're pretty close to overdose limit.

Now a crackhead insult! Must I say I really hate your pasty, bent nosed ugly piece of shlt? Serbians are the poor filth of Europe and should be kicked out of participation on world politics as soon as possible.

Jesus, you really think the Iraqi people loved Saddam? Ah well... Serbs are USUALLY the lowly immigrants of the world, you can't expect much. You are really poor too, right? Figures

[Zylka]

Ahhhh c'mon... the low economic class, filthy Ruso man who thinks Iraqs population actually supports the regime doesn't want to play the game he started?

As a Serb who was probably thrilled with Milos genocides, I imagine you think Saddam is just as great a guy when gassing Kurds?

tehehehe!

[Jaakko]

I dunno Zylka, you started out ok, a bit too much platitudes perhaps, but it was pretty good.

But then you started your forays into bizarro insult land, hence my remark.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Zylka


Now a crackhead insult!

Insult? Here on Poly, I heard thousand times how people ask each other "what are you smoking?". If you consideer this is an insult, perhaps it's because you are really smoke something illegal.

Must I say I really hate your pasty, bent nosed ugly piece of shlt? Serbians are the poor filth of Europe and should be kicked out of participation on world politics as soon as possible.

I wounder where moderators are, when you need them?

Zylka, thanks for sharing your point of view with me. Great aproach. You know, Hitler had the same view on issue.

Jesus, you really think the Iraqi people loved Saddam?

Jesus, do you really think Iraqi people cheers American soldiers?

Ah well... Serbs are USUALLY the lowly immigrants of the world, you can't expect much. You are really poor too, right? Figures

Living few years in Canada didn't make you a Canadian yet. You're still a Polish drug addicted biatch.
And one more thing. I realize that such talented people as you are just unable to understand some things from first try. I've said it many times personaly for you, but I'll make one more and this time final try:
I'M NOT SERBIAN AND DO NOT HAVE ANY SERBIAN HERITAGE. I'M RUSSIAN. R U S S I A N, FROM S I B E R I A, not SERBIA
.
I'm wasting my time.