I am protesting the protesters

[Agathon]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people.

Suck it up.

I remember discussions like this during the afganisthan war last year.
The afghan people were happy!

And don't forget that much people are murdered by the Iraqi regime!

OK so your solution is obviously to kill more of them instead of using force as a last resort.

And Afghanistan is sure a great place to live right now. Girls can go to school, Whoopee!!! They can also get killed in the crossfire from one of the attempts to kill Karzai.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people.

Suck it up.

I remember discussions like this during the afganisthan war last year.
The afghan people were happy!

You do realize that the civil war in afghanistan is as strong as ever (only, I imagine that some of the warlords have bigger and better guns now) and that the afghan government does not have enough money to rebuild the damages done over the past few decades of war, don't you?

The current rulers are a less oppresive then the Taliban, but that is hardly saying much. Then again, the Saudi government - more friends of the USA - are about as bad as the Taliban ever was.

[muxec]

I protest the protesters. Protests in USA are panic propoganda.

[Az]

Osweld, do you actually believe that things are WORSE there?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Azazel
Osweld, do you actually believe that things are WORSE there?

Care to point out where I said that? I'm really geting tired of you always making up both sides of the argument and putting words in people's mouths. I specifically said that the the new government is better then the Taliban was but, again, that isn't saying much. I honeslty can't tell you how bad the current government is, since no one seems to care about the place since the USA has shot it's load. From the little I have heard, though, it seems to be more on the same level as Saddam in the oppress-o-meter, which is a signifigant improvement. Then again, the place has been in near anarchy for the past few decades anyways, and it probably hasn't effected much outside of the major cities.


What I was saying is that, overall, nothing has changed. The Americans did not bring democracy and freedom to the people, or signifigantly improve their lives. They merely rearranged the board. The Civil war continues, and there is no sign of it ever stoping. The country still does not have a working democracy, nor does it have any signs of moving towards that. Many of the Warlords involved in the civil war are just as bad as the Taliban, and even some of the former Taliban are still in the government.

The USA went in, blew the place up, installed a friendly regime, and then forgot it ever happened. The country does not even have enough money to rebuild -apparently the USA is more concerned with things like developing new nuclear weapons technology then it is in 'freedom and democracy'.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Agathon


Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people.

Suck it up.

Well, most of the "other" commutters are anti-war or anti-whatever too. That only serves to have them against the protesters.

If you are going to do something, do it right.

[axi]

I heard there were 1000 arrests in SF. This is an insanely large amount of people: in Athens, the most people arrested ever were 150, when the war broke out in Yugoslavia and there was extensive streetfighting around the US embassy.

I bet these 1000 people weren't even close to rioting.

I have been protesting with all my forces. I participated , in a 200.000 people demo in 15/2, in a 20.000 people demo in Saturday 15/3, in a 200.000 people demo yesterday and in a 200.000 people demo today and I'm going in one tomorrow. In 15/2 and today the police made extensive use of chemical weapons against the demonstraors and in both cases there are reports of police brutality during unprovoked arrests.

The police do NEVER ever arrest people who are rioting and are throwing stones and molotovs at them. They simply won't risk their necks. They are always arresting innocent people arterwars, specially those that can be easily intimidated by a night in custody.

[ajbera]

Originally posted by Osweld
From the little I have heard, though, it seems to be more on the same level as Saddam in the oppress-o-meter, which is a signifigant improvement.

oppress-o-meter. What a great word. It's a damn shame about MOO3's poor reviews, as it diminshes the likelihood of this wonderful term being assimilated into the national lexicon.

Okay, back to the war discussion.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Osweld


The USA went in, blew the place up, installed a friendly regime, and then forgot it ever happened. The country does not even have enough money to rebuild -apparently the USA is more concerned with things like developing new nuclear weapons technology then it is in 'freedom and democracy'.

They are still there you know, along with troops from several other countries, my own included. The story there isn't finished yet. That country has been so badly damaged you can't expect things to change overnight. It will take a long time before we can gauge the success or failure of the efforts to improve their situation.

[Drake Tungsten]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but morally treasonable to the American public."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Good quote.

I like mine better though...

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Willem


They are still there you know, along with troops from several other countries, my own included. The story there isn't finished yet. That country has been so badly damaged you can't expect things to change overnight. It will take a long time before we can gauge the success or failure of the efforts to improve their situation.

If I remember correctly, they only have a few thousand still there, I believe 5,000 was the number I read. They're mostly just looking for any remains of Al-Qaeda, and probably help defend their puppet regime from the warlords. I haven't heard a single thing about them doing anything about the civil war except for giving certain warlords supplies.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Osweld


If I remember correctly, they only have a few thousand still there, I believe 5,000 was the number I read. They're mostly just looking for any remains of Al-Qaeda, and probably help defend their puppet regime from the warlords. I haven't heard a single thing about them doing anything about the civil war except for giving certain warlords supplies.

I don't think a 5 year wait is to long before we can judge how well things are going. The country is little more than a feudal society, with hardly any infrastructure left standing. It's going to take years before things improve there to any noticable degree, and even then it will still look backwards to our view.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Master Zen


Well, most of the "other" commutters are anti-war or anti-whatever too. That only serves to have them against the protesters.

If you are going to do something, do it right.

Hardly - we got an overwhelmingly positive response from motorists here in TO. You know - honking, smiling, waving, etc.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by axi
I heard there were 1000 arrests in SF. This is an insanely large amount of people: in Athens, the most people arrested ever were 150, when the war broke out in Yugoslavia and there was extensive streetfighting around the US embassy.

I bet these 1000 people weren't even close to rioting.

I have been protesting with all my forces. I participated , in a 200.000 people demo in 15/2, in a 20.000 people demo in Saturday 15/3, in a 200.000 people demo yesterday and in a 200.000 people demo today and I'm going in one tomorrow. In 15/2 and today the police made extensive use of chemical weapons against the demonstraors and in both cases there are reports of police brutality during unprovoked arrests.

The police do NEVER ever arrest people who are rioting and are throwing stones and molotovs at them. They simply won't risk their necks. They are always arresting innocent people arterwars, specially those that can be easily intimidated by a night in custody.

I don't know what the police are like there, but the Toronto police seem to have learned lessons from past debacles. We had an unannounced protest in which we blocked traffic, held a "die in" at the busiest intersection in town, and marched down the main streets. Not only did the police not attack the protestors, they directed traffic to minimize disruption, helped people in need, defused conflict and made it clear to the protestors where the line was drawn. It was not crossed. All in all an excellent piece of crowd management done on the fly.

I'm not saying that the TO police are always great, but they deserved a gold star yesterday.

I've talked to a few cops at past demos here and all the ones I have talked to are anti war as well.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Agathon


I don't know what the police are like there, but the Toronto police seem to have learned lessons from past debacles. We had an unannounced protest in which we blocked traffic, held a "die in" at the busiest intersection in town, and marched down the main streets. Not only did the police not attack the protestors, they directed traffic to minimize disruption, helped people in need, defused conflict and made it clear to the protestors where the line was drawn. It was not crossed. All in all an excellent piece of crowd management done on the fly.

I'm not saying that the TO police are always great, but they deserved a gold star yesterday.

I've talked to a few cops at past demos here and all the ones I have talked to are anti war as well.

Julian Fantino, the Toronto police chief, is proposing some draconian regulations in order to control protests. The civil libertarians are already up in arms about it. I don't know the details of the plan though. One thing I heard was a group would have to pay some sort of bond in order to be cleared for a protest. Meaning only rich people will be allowed to have a voice.