A question for the communists, and socialists

[Az]

I think this is a time everyone describes his perfect state.

[Worthingtons]

One is bad, the other is worse - or at least that's the main difference I see
it does seem tho, that socialism is a just a weaker,diluted version of it's evil extreme.

[Sava]

The problem with Communism I have, and perhaps I'm mistaken about this presumption, is that you need to have some sort of free-market business system when it comes to consumer goods. IMO, things like health-care, education, housing (to some degree), energy production, and transportation infrastructure should be completely non-profit and highly efficient to provide the lowest possible expense. In my understanding of Communism, there is no such thing as private enterprise. And that's just wrong. Even if the system is completely democratic, you can't have the government mandating the production of consumer goods. And in order to enforce the ideals of Communism, you're going to need the government to mandate such things. The free-market has a place in a civilized, socially conscious, democratic society. And as much as business types hate government oversight, you need to have rules and regulation to keep business practices fair, and you need a democratic governmental entity responsible for such regulation. I don't believe in the idea of self-regulation for business. History has proven it to be a terrible failure. And by that logic, it would seem silly to have a self-regulating justice system. We'll just trust people not to steal, commit murder, etc... it doesn't work that way. Wherever people are involved, there will be some criminal element... business is no different, and IMO, especially vulnerable and attractive to criminals because of the amount of money involved.

[SlowwHand]

They're both for unmotivated people, who want the most they can get, for the least they have to give.

Cool, Sava. Right up your alley.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Rothy
One is bad, the other is worse - or at least that's the main difference I see
it does seem tho, that socialism is a just a weaker,diluted version of it's evil extreme.

What about Social-Democracy? Or is it all just red-commie nonsense?

[Sava]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They're both for unmotivated people, who want the most they can get, for the least they have to give.

Cool, Sava. Right up your alley.

Did you read my first post? :P

[Sava]

And that's another thing, Slowwhand just reminded me. For some reason, if you believe every child should have health-care, education, and equal opprotunity; you're suddenly labeled a Communist, radical, left-wing nut.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Sava
And that's another thing, Slowwhand just reminded me. For some reason, if you believe every child should have health-care, education, and equal opprotunity; you're suddenly labeled a Communist, radical, left-wing nut.

thats just america's cold war syndrome. it will fade in time, probably not in our time, sadly.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Sava
And that's another thing, Slowwhand just reminded me. For some reason, if you believe every child should have health-care, education, and equal opprotunity; you're suddenly labeled a Communist, radical, left-wing nut.

Socialist, not communist.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Sava
The problem with Communism I have, and perhaps I'm mistaken about this presumption, is that you need to have some sort of free-market business system when it comes to consumer goods. IMO, things like health-care, education, housing (to some degree), energy production, and transportation infrastructure should be completely non-profit and highly efficient to provide the lowest possible expense. In my understanding of Communism, there is no such thing as private enterprise. And that's just wrong. Even if the system is completely democratic, you can't have the government mandating the production of consumer goods. And in order to enforce the ideals of Communism, you're going to need the government to mandate such things. The free-market has a place in a civilized, socially conscious, democratic society. And as much as business types hate government oversight, you need to have rules and regulation to keep business practices fair, and you need a democratic governmental entity responsible for such regulation. I don't believe in the idea of self-regulation for business. History has proven it to be a terrible failure. And by that logic, it would seem silly to have a self-regulating justice system. We'll just trust people not to steal, commit murder, etc... it doesn't work that way. Wherever people are involved, there will be some criminal element... business is no different, and IMO, especially vulnerable and attractive to criminals because of the amount of money involved.

AFAIK, there is indeed no such thing a a private enterprised in communism. But it doesn't necessarily mean the government is in charge of the enterprises. A good chunk of communists call for "autodetermination", which is about giving the power within the enterprise to the people who work there. It follows the same logic as the zapatista demand "Fields to those who work on them !".
As there is no government in marx's communism, there is no state intervention to dictate prices, demand, etc. Such a state intervention happened during Soviet Union's socialism, when the State and not the Workers owned all businesses except individual ones.
I know socialism doesn't oppose individual private property, and communism doesn't oppose it either. Hence, people earn their money, and use it the way they please to buy goods for them. They earn this money by working for the collective rather than for the shareholder.
The ideal communist society functions a way disturbingly close to Smith's invisible hand.

[Az]

and perhaps I'm mistaken about this presumption, is that you need to have some sort of free-market business system when it comes to consumer goods.

Not necessarily, but yes, generally, things get more capitalist there, since consumer demand is harder to predict, so responsiblity can be shifted to the workers and the managers in place. But even there, it is not necessary. A couple of "government owned corporations" ( for a lack of a better name for this entity ) can compete with each other.

[Az]

As there is no government in marx's communism, there is no state intervention to dictate prices, demand, etc.

"dictate" is a loud word, for the distribution of resources.

What would prevent those workers from being as assholish as the corporations of today?

[Kidlicious]

Sava,

The market is inefficient at allocating resources. Almost always, there is either a shortage of a surplus. Even when there seems to be an equilibrium what is produced is not what society really wants. The producers have no idea what each other are doing, or really how much demand there will be for their product in the future. There is a continual cycle of crashes either caused by oversupply or underdemand. Everytime there is a crash an unbelievable amount of resources are wasted. The government has shown itself ineffective at stoping these cycles. There is a better way. We can do better than this.

[Sava]

DL!! do the DL dance

Consumer goods are different from resources... re-read my posts please. Or slower this time, so you can understand them better

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Azazel

"dictate" is a loud word, for the distribution of resources.

What would prevent those workers from being as assholish as the corporations of today?

well, for one thing, the whole society are workers, not elite coroprate owners...