A question for the communists, and socialists

[Space05us]

Whats the difference between Communism and Socialism?

[Sava]

I don't consider myself either, but AFAIK, the difference is the Communism is more of a direct belief in Marxist ideology while Socialism seems to be more like Universal Health Care, Free Education, Social Security nets, etc.

IMO, from a public relations standpoint, people that do believe in Communism should change their name because through all the Red-Scares and American propaganda, Communism has become synonymous with Stalinism and other forms of authoritarian governments. I know that true Communism has never existed, and the Soviet Union and China weren't true Communist/Socialist states; but there are a ton of ignorant Ameicans that don't know the difference. And if you want to get the support of the majority of Americans in order to institute progressive reform, you can't brandish the name of a type of government that was demonized for most of the 20th century.

my 2 cents...

[Az]

I think that che will explain this best.

Communists are a subgroup of socialists, basically. There are many groups of both movements.

[Az]

oh, and please don't ask me what exactly I am. I am having difficulties, myself. Maybe if a proffesional would diagnose me...

[SlowwHand]

Not the same, no matter what...some will tell you.

According to Marx, socialism is a stage on the way to communism, which is the more advanced stage of humyn organization not yet achieved in China or the Soviet Union, even according to Lenin, Stalin and Mao.

According to Marx, under socialism we have a dictatorship of the proletariat which is a government organized for the defense of survival "rights." Also, distribution goes by the principle "from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her work."

Under communism, according to Marx, the government disappears and there is economic cooperation as well. The principle of distribution becomes "from each according to his/her ability, to each according his/her need."

http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/commievssoc.html

[Spiffor]

Sava :
not quite, what you describe as "socialism" is social-democracy, i.e a tamed capitalism, like what Europe has done.

Space05us :
I'm no big expert like Che, but here's my attempt to explain though (socialism/communism in the marxist theory). To Marx, there have been several great steps in the economic structure of mankind : primal communities, slavery, feudalism, capitalism. The next 2 steps are socialism and communism, the latter being the last economic structure mankind will know. Socialism can be hence called a transition regime before communism ala Marx.
Socialism is the time when the working class has taken power, and the tools of production belong to it rather than the bourgeoisie. A socialist society still has institutions like State, and the class-warfare continues, even though the working class has the upper hand.
Communism is the last possible form of society because it went to the whole process of abolishing classes, and hence class warfare (socialism was instrumental in this process). A communist society is also stateless.

All "communist" countries have actually dubbed themselves socialist, even though they promoted communism as their official long-term goal. Many elements of socialism were present, the most important being no more private business, except for individual businesses. The lack of democracy in socialist countries has nothing to do with socialism as theoritized by Marx (though Marx acknowledges things must be rough when the revolution is occuring).

[Az]

Spiffor: that's why I don't stick to Marx.


Just call me an Egalitarian Technocrat.

[SlowwHand]

I guess you can be a cat, and call yourself a dog, as far as that goes.

In any case, neither work.

[Spiffor]

I don't either. But since the definition of communism varies from one communist to another, I prefer sticking with the only widely recognized definition when explaining it to a non-commie

[Sava]

Spiffor: Thanks for the clarification. I keep forgetting that. I think some form of Social-Democracy is probably the best form of government. One of the biggest problems in the US is the amount of lobbying power that special interest groups and corporations have. If we could get that bullsh1t out of the government, and then institute more social, but efficient, programs... we'd be on the right track to a better government.

[Urban Ranger]

You can be a non-Marxist communist.

Really.

[Az]

UR, how would you describe yourself?

[Urban Ranger]

I am mainly a communist, pretty much a Marxist communist. But I am still working out if violent struggle is required, or democracy can lead to communism.

[Sava]

I guess you got your answer!

[Spiffor]

UR :
Yes. However, there is no widely recognized definition of non-marxist socialism/communism. But each one has is own, more or less (actually, I'm not a Marxist, and I don't believe in his utopia, which comes surpiringly close to the Smithian absurd utopia IHMO).