Did we score a victory?

[yavoon]

to agathon

its irrelevant if we were against it or not. its not gna exist inthe current climate. it could only exist in some future unnamed climate in which the US would probably not be the monopolistic military power it is now.

u'd really need to make the UN its own "nation" in that it could move w/o further consideration or need of support. but considering now if freedom fighters shoot at UN soldiers the UN pulls out of the region I must admit it takes quite a stretch to the day the UN becomes a place where laws are enforced.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Agathon



Anyway, the legitimacy of the UN would be in doubt were the French not to veto since the only reason that the US would win the vote is that they'd bribed or threatened members of the council, just like they tried and probably are still trying to bribe Turkey.

There are laws against this sort of coercion in democratic countries because it is rightly recognised that it is destructive of democracy. Presumably the security council should in an ideal world follow the opinion of the uncoerced majority. Now you can't tell me that an uncoerced majority of SC members support a war against Iraq. If the US cares about democracy at all it should obey the UN - even when it is not in its interests to do so.

In effect it is like this within democratic countries. All representatives to some degree act out of self interest (their own and their constituents') and often the losers have to put up with votes that go against their interests. That is democracy. The same goes for the UN - democracy isn't perfect but it is the least worst system.

If we waited for democracy to work we would still be waiting for Russia to approve a UN resolution to solve the problem we solved for Europe in Yugoslovia. And you are just exposing the farce of the UN. There is nothing done in the council without bribery and coercion of one sort or another. And the tyranny of the majority can be equally opressive if you happen to be a minority that needs some help.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Agathon


Rubbish. I favour the coercive inspections that the Germans suggested.

I didn't know you were a peacenik. I wasn't talking about you.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The most arrogant and gloating country is not in the Middle East...

Spot on! Said nations are in Europe — namely, France and Germany, the so-called leaders of the enlightened European Union. With Iraq a close third, BTW.

Gatekeeper

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Lincoln


If we waited for democracy to work we would still be waiting for Russia to approve a UN resolution to solve the problem we solved for Europe in Yugoslovia. And you are just exposing the farce of the UN. There is nothing done in the council without bribery and coercion of one sort or another. And the tyranny of the majority can be equally opressive if you happen to be a minority that needs some help.

Duh!

This doesn't count as a refutation. I don't think its any better when the Russians veto a resolution favoured by the majority than when the US does it.

And if democratic will had been followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be long gone.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Spot on! Said nations are in Europe — namely, France and Germany, the so-called leaders of the enlightened European Union. With Iraq a close third, BTW.

Yea, at least we can agree, that we hate each other. What would be not entirely true, what concerns me, I just can't stand the Bush regime. But I can't stand Schoeder and Chirac either.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by yavoon
to agathon

its irrelevant if we were against it or not. its not gna exist inthe current climate. it could only exist in some future unnamed climate in which the US would probably not be the monopolistic military power it is now.

It isn't a monopolistic miltary power and in any case if the US really cared about democracy and human rights they would be trying to strengthen the UN instead of riding roughshod over it.

[Lincoln]

Mutual hatred can be a good thing. Maybe all the arrogant nations will destroy each other and only the humble will be left to divide the spoils.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Agathon
Vastly overrated. Who will you all come begging to to help with the reconstruction.

Nobody. We did just fine helping to rebuild those fools in Western Europe following World War II with the Marshall Plan. If it comes down to it, we can do it again with the likes of Afghanistan, Iraq and Eastern Europe.

I'm not saying it'd be easy, BTW, because it wouldn't (particuarly if folks like you are busy sniping away at everything we do). But it is doable. What it needs are people with guts, patience and the wherewithal to look at things in the long term, rather than in three-month increments or less. It took years to rebuild Europe and Japan after World War II, and nothing less should be expected in the likes of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Call me naive, perhaps, but I'd rather be that any day of the week than some embittered old man who looks down on everything humanity does, or dreams to do.

Gatekeeper

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Agathon



And if democratic will had been followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be long gone.

You really are a dreamer. But I admire your hope.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Mutual hatred can be a good thing. Maybe all the arrogant nations will destroy each other and only the humble will be left to divide the spoils.

That would, btw, be not the worst solution, even though it would mean, that my nation disappears along with yours. But Gandhi is dead, IIRC... who is next?

[yavoon]

there's no other way to ride. the UN takes so few actions that are so delayed. that unless ur country is always for non action. u simply have to do things w/o the UN. there's no other way to go.

and the US is pretty much a monopolistic military power. we have 12 carriers. france/russia are the ones behind us if u consider technology. pure #'s there's a bunch of non democratic nations that have tons of soldiers but that isnt that impressive in many situations.

france has 1 carrier and it dont work too well,and its smaller.

we dwarf other ppl in conventional military capabilities, including our flexibility, mobility and firepower.

[Lincoln]

I'm going to retire in Thailand. I will watch the mushroom clouds from a distance...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Lincoln
I'm going to retire in Thailand. I will watch the mushroom clouds from a distance...

Nice place. Would suit me too.

[Lincoln]

I'm off to bed. Maybe I will see you there someday...