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  • Originally posted by Agathon


    Unfortunately , it's also an internation debating society that the democracy loving citizens of most countries care about very deeply because they see it as providing the beginnings of a real system of international law.

    The problem facing the pro-war leaders is that they didn't realise that their own constituents care about the UN much more than they do. This won't bother Bush much since the UN has least influence in the US, but the Europeans really care about it and so do the Canadians, which shows why there is such a difference of opinion on this side of the Niagara Falls.

    I can't believe that they didn't account for this. After all almost everyone I know thinks that an international criminal court is a fantastic idea since the current system allows the Suhartos, Pinochets and Kissingers to get away with mass murder. Opposing such a court can't but help make you look like a bad guy.
    Good points except I must refer you to the first sentence of your second paragraph. I could just as easily say that the "anti UN resolution enforcement leaders" do not care about the legitimacy of the UN. Look at the following article from the Bangkok Post for example for a different view:

    Power grab could end UN sham



    France has promised to veto the US-British-Spanish resolution to end Saddam Hussein's manipulation of the United Nations. Two other veto-bearing members of the Security Council, Russia and China, are expected to join in protecting Iraq from being forced to disarm.

    President Bush has made it clear he will call for the vote that will expose the council as unwilling to protect the world from blackmail by terrorist states with ultimate weapons.

    This means that the United Nations, as now constituted, may continue humanitarian activity but need no longer function as the umbrella under which strong nations restrain aggression.

    It has failed dismally before. Because Russia had the veto to protect Serbia's dictator, the United States had to turn to NATO to act in the United Nations's stead against aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, interceding after tens of thousands of lives had been lost. A half-century before, only the temporary absence of the Soviet delegate enabled the United States to fly the UN flag in stopping North Korea's invasion of the South.

    As the Security Council exhibits its irrelevance again, the United States and its many allies will step in to fill the void. These Allied Nations will assume the burden of replacing Saddam and removing his arsenal of terror.

    But what of the threat of terror opening a second front in Asia? True to form, the United Nations is frozen. Russia and China will do nothing to contain the nuclear threat from their neighbour, North Korea. France and Germany look away, urging the United States to buy off the extortionists unilaterally.

    This is a further abdication of collective security. It may be that the United States, even during the attention-consuming eviction of Saddam, will have to create another regional coalition of free nations to deal with the nuclear danger posed by North Korea.

    The communist regime in Pyongyang is revving up its reactors to produce plutonium and is ominously testing its medium-range missiles. With malice aforethought, it tried to force down our unarmed reconnaissance aircraft so as to take its crew hostage.

    How to respond? With the United Nations paralysed as usual, we see a complacent China, a mischievous Russia, an appeasing South Korea _ as well as accommodationists in the United States _ demanding that the United States submit to another round of blackmail.

    A month ago, I characterised our 37,000 troops stationed near the border of North Korea as a ``reverse deterrent.'' If we were forced to bomb the facilities producing nuclear weapons for sale to terrorists, one-third of these US troops within range of 11,000 communist artillery pieces would be the first casualties of a North Korean attack. With so many Americans as the North's human shields, Pyongyang's blackmailers are emboldened _ the opposite of deterred. South Korea's leaders have gained popularity by vilifying Americans stationed along the demilitarised zone and demanding that the United States accede to the North's demands. Recently, Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld expressed an interest in redeploying endangered Americans southward, or to other bases. At the same time, he ordered 20 long-range bombers to our base in Guam. South Korea's new prime minister got the message. ``The role of US troops as a tripwire,'' the worried official told our ambassador, ``must be maintained.'' Previously anti-American politicians are suddenly encouraging pro-American demonstrations.

    Too late. America's strategic interest in this post-Security Council era is to let the strong South defend its territory while we make clear to weapons traders in the North that their illicit nuclear production is vulnerable to air attack. That readiness will bring about what diplomatists call ``a fruitful, regional, multilateral negotiation.'' No war needed. No Security Council obfuscation necessary. We can thank the Franco-German power grab for precipitating the diplomatic crisis that could usher in a post-Security Council era.

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    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gatekeeper
      Yeah! If we'd just left those Iraqi bastards alone in 1990-91, those 100,000 — fascinating number that is, since reputable sources I've followed over the years have *never* been able to pin down an exact number of deaths
      Well, the Pentagon won't be so kind to publish a record of its crimes, so I took the average of the numbers I heard (between ~50,000 and ~150,000). Even the lower margin would be enough.

      Right now, I think the United States should pull *all* its troops out of Kuwait and elsewhere in the Middle East.
      Yes.

      I'd love to do nothing more than sit back and snack on popcorn while watching the world beg Iraq to let Hans Blix, et al., do their job w/o the threat of U.S. military power. I bet the world would find an Iraq even more arrogant and gloating than it is now (thanks to France and Germany)!
      The most arrogant and gloating country is not in the Middle East...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by yavoon
        obviously when I said "never enforce anything" it was exageration.

        yes if you piss them off they will try to drop sanctions on u. they will probably draft 2-3 more resolutions. maybe yell a lil, call u a bad person.

        the UN is just a big place to talk. for the UN to be truely effective it'd need a military that didn't pull out of areas BECAUSE IT WAS SHOT AT. and a military large enuff to enforce, by force. when necessary. u'd need ur resoultions to hold weight and not simply be political tools.
        OK - but do you think the US would be for or against such a force. I'd say they'd be against it because they know that it would be used to protect the weak against the strong (i.e. everyone else against them).
        Only feebs vote.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Drogue

          It could be becasue they are a democratic country and are doing what their people want. AFAIK The US (and maybe Israel?) are the only countries where the people want to go to war. In both Spain and the UK people against war are in the majority.
          Not participating is one thing - even abstaining on the vote is one way to get domestic policy concerns out of the way. Another option is simply to counterpropose a longer time frame. Announcing "no matter what, we're going to veto any use of force, ever" may be popular for domestic consumption, but it's not very good foreign policy. Not only is the strain in US - French relations worth more than the underlying issue, but making visible the split between eastern and western Europe gives room for the US to maneuver and limit the influence of western Europe.

          Governments usually find ways around these sorts of issues without riling up too many people, so the rather hardened position of the French is unusual, to say the least.
          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

          Comment


          • The most arrogant and gloating country is not in the Middle East...


            Correct. It's in the heart of Western Europe...
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            ASHER FOR CEO!!
            GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sir Ralph


              Well, the Pentagon won't be so kind to publish a record of its crimes, so I took the average of the numbers I heard (between ~50,000 and ~150,000). Even the lower margin would be enough.
              Yes, it was a crime to expel armed Iraqi invaders from Kuwait, pursuant to unanimous UNSC resolutions, as the leading part of a coalition of 28 nations.

              What solar system are you from again?


              The most arrogant and gloating country is not in the Middle East...
              At least we have the power to back it up.
              When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lincoln


                Good points except I must refer you to the first sentence of your second paragraph. I could just as easily say that the "anti UN resolution enforcement leaders" do not care about the legitimacy of the UN. Look at the following article from the Bangkok Post for example for a different view:
                Don't think that I think that all motives of the French are necessarily all high and mighty, although I think that they aren't all bad. I happen to think that the war is a dumb idea and I would think so even if the French were for it.

                Anyway, the legitimacy of the UN would be in doubt were the French not to veto since the only reason that the US would win the vote is that they'd bribed or threatened members of the council, just like they tried and probably are still trying to bribe Turkey.

                There are laws against this sort of coercion in democratic countries because it is rightly recognised that it is destructive of democracy. Presumably the security council should in an ideal world follow the opinion of the uncoerced majority. Now you can't tell me that an uncoerced majority of SC members support a war against Iraq. If the US cares about democracy at all it should obey the UN - even when it is not in its interests to do so.

                In effect it is like this within democratic countries. All representatives to some degree act out of self interest (their own and their constituents') and often the losers have to put up with votes that go against their interests. That is democracy. The same goes for the UN - democracy isn't perfect but it is the least worst system.
                Only feebs vote.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                  but making visible the split between eastern and western Europe gives room for the US to maneuver and limit the influence of western Europe
                  I agree that France's tactics have done it no little harm (as have the US', IMO) but I don't think they are (or should be) too worried about Eastern Europe.

                  Eastern Europe needs to join the EU to keep from ending up like Russia, and Western Europe doesn't have to let them...


                  In the end, no matter what they're saying now, what France thinks about them is going to matter a lot more to them than what the US thinks of them.
                  12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                  Stadtluft Macht Frei
                  Killing it is the new killing it
                  Ultima Ratio Regum

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

                    At least we have the power to back it up.
                    Vastly overrated. Who will you all come begging to to help with the reconstruction.
                    Only feebs vote.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Frogger


                      I agree that France's tactics have done it no little harm (as have the US', IMO) but I don't think they are (or should be) too worried about Eastern Europe.

                      Eastern Europe needs to join the EU to keep from ending up like Russia, and Western Europe doesn't have to let them...


                      In the end, no matter what they're saying now, what France thinks about them is going to matter a lot more to them than what the US thinks of them.


                      Agreed - the US needs to realise that the French and Germans effectively have the whip hand in Europe and it doesn't.
                      Only feebs vote.

                      Comment


                      • quote from Gatekeeper:

                        "I'd love to do nothing more than sit back and snack on popcorn while watching the world beg Iraq to let Hans Blix, et al., do their job w/o the threat of U.S. military power. I bet the world would find an Iraq even more arrogant and gloating than it is now (thanks to France and Germany)!"

                        Hey buddy, don't count on a peacenik to understand that logic. They want inspections without the threat of force. Or -- the threat of force without actually using the force. In other words they want the help of the US while telling the US to go to hell. Or -- they want diplomacy that is rooted in a lie. I guess they forgot that there was no inspectors allowed in Iraq until Bush threatened war. Oh well, let's not argue over petty details here...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

                          Announcing "no matter what, we're going to veto any use of force, ever" may be popular for domestic consumption, but it's not very good foreign policy.
                          And announcing, "no matter what we are going to use force" may be popular for domestic consumption but it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing "We are enforcing the resolutions of the UN" but actively disobeying that institution, may be popular for domestic consumption but it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing, "there is a connection between Iraq and Al Quaeda" but not providing any real evidence of it, may be popular for domestic consumption but it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing "Iraq is a threat to our security" but not providing any real evidence of it, may be popular for domestic consumption but it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing "Iraq is attempting to acquire nuclear weapons" but not providing any real evidence of it, may be popular for domestic consumption but it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing "We will seek a vote for sure by the end of the week" but but dilly dallying, is probably not popular for domestic consumption and it's not very good foreign policy.

                          And announcing "We can go it alone without the UK" thus alienating an ally in a difficult position that he has maintained for our benefit, will not be popular for domestic consumption and it's not very good foreign policy.

                          I could go on, but I'm bored.
                          Only feebs vote.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                            Yes, it was a crime to expel armed Iraqi invaders from Kuwait, pursuant to unanimous UNSC resolutions, as the leading part of a coalition of 28 nations.

                            What solar system are you from again?
                            If it was only to expel the invaders out of Kuwait, why was it necessary to bomb the **** out of Baghdad, which is 500km away, and kill thousands of civilians?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lincoln

                              Hey buddy, don't count on a peacenik to understand that logic. They want inspections without the threat of force. Or -- the threat of force without actually using the force. In other words they want the help of the US while telling the US to go to hell. Or -- they want diplomacy that is rooted in a lie. I guess they forgot that there was no inspectors allowed in Iraq until Bush threatened war. Oh well, let's not argue over petty details here...
                              Rubbish. I favour the coercive inspections that the Germans suggested.
                              Only feebs vote.

                              Comment


                              • If it was only to expel the invaders out of Kuwait, why was it necessary to bomb the **** out of Baghdad, which is 500km away, and kill thousands of civilians?


                                This isn't going to be pretty...
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                                ASHER FOR CEO!!
                                GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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