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Europe-US Split ... Ramifications May Last For Years

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Sir Ralph
    It really doesn't matter much. There are, what, some 70,000 left here, most of which are absent most of the time anyway (in Yugoslavia/Afghanistan/Gulf region etc) and this way can't raise our economy significantly.
    Obviously the German economy will not collapse if the US troops pull out entirely, but some quick calculations indicate that we're talking about 14 billion USD year for the German economy. Thats not insignificant by any means.

    EDIT: I found some other numbers that said that NATO costs us 90bn USD/yr. Since 70% of that force is stationed in Germany that would be something around 60bn USD (Of course not all of that money would flow directly into the German economy).

    The big cut already was in the early nineties, when the occupation of Germany ended and the US forces were reduced from several hundred thousands to the mentioned 70,000 NATO contingent. Mind you, that time it was Germany, who asked the US forces to leave. So the economical drawback couldn't really hurt much.
    What 'occupation of Germany' was that?

    What concerns the upcoming complete withdrawal of the US forces... well, you are overestimating our interest. It's not that we're saying "Holy ****, now that will hurt us severely!" . Neither will we dance in the streets. The reaction most likely will be "So the Americans pull their forces out. And what else did happen?"
    Just like to point out that as of this time there are no official plans to withdraw the troops from Germany http://idsnews.com/story.php?id=14716.

    Hopefully, the other Germans will feel just as you do.
    Last edited by SpencerH; March 10, 2003, 10:54.
    We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
    If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
    Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Sir Ralph


      Thanks for caring so much for me . What I didn't mention is, that my hypothetical mum wanted to force me to have my dinner at McDonalds.

      Seriously, consumer level boycotts are so silly. Did you buy French wine and German cars so far (if at all) because you like France and Germany? Hardly. You, or let's say most customers, bought them because they're good. Now let's assume you and a few of your fellows really boycott them in the future. This will mean, you at free will switch to second tier products. The company you attack won't be harmed much, they will either sell more cars in other countries, or they have to fire a couple of workers. Perhaps a few from unrentable Chrysler? Which brings to me another question. Would you buy a Chrysler?
      I own a Dodge Dakota. I love my truck!
      No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Trajanus


        That's right, and in the ancient Greek plays, hybris always led to a downfall
        Hybris? Is that some kind of tropical flower?
        No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by SpencerH
          Obviously the German economy will not collapse if the US troops pull out entirely, but some quick calculations indicate that we're talking about 14 billion USD year for the German economy. Thats not insignificant by any means.
          I'd like to see that "quick calculation".

          What 'occupation of Germany' was that?
          That was a rhetorical question, right?

          Just like to point out that as of this time there are no official plans to withdraw the troops from Germany http://idsnews.com/story.php?id=14716.
          May be there are no official plans, indeed.

          Hopefully, the other Germans will feel just as you do.
          A quick poll among my colleagues (I'm at work) varied between "thank god" and "who cares". My opinion is the latter. Workers of factories, that support the US army, may see that different. But they are not that many.

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          • #65
            This split on Iraq predated Bush for a while. Clinton just didn't have the balls to push it.

            And it certainly is not something anyone who wanted to be considered an ally would do.

            That's precisely right. France wants to stand up to the US and create a counterbalance to our power. Guess what? That's not what allies do to each other.

            Bush made clear that he believed that this was a vital interest of the United States and a clear threat against the United States. Allies don't fly into Africa to rally opposition to your policies on it.

            Overall, the US is in no danger of becoming hated throughout the world. The coalition for this operation is quite large, with or without the UN. The UN is largely irrelevant for the US (not for the UK, perhaps). Perhaps some icing on the cake.
            Last edited by DanS; March 10, 2003, 11:07.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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            • #66
              Dan, I don't see how this, or anything, could "help France counterbalance our power."

              I think it's the oil deal.
              Long time member @ Apolyton
              Civilization player since the dawn of time

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              • #67
                Originally posted by DanS
                Overall, the US is in no danger of becoming hated throughout the world. The coalition for this operation is quite large, with or without the UN.
                Don't forget, that even in most countries, that support the US, the vast majority of citizens is against that war. No government, that calls itself democratic, can afford to ignore the public opinion on the long run. Look at your best ally UK at the time. And it's not governments, but people, who'll feel hatred.

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                • #68
                  Believe it or not, Lancer. That's the way they look at it.

                  I think we should punish France for working against us on what we believe to be a threat against the US and on what is clearly not a French vital interest. Don't know how, but we should be working up a list...

                  Look at your best ally UK at the time. And it's not governments, but people, who'll feel hatred.

                  Opposition is not hatred. Even anti-Americanism isn't hatred. Don't read too much into it.
                  Last edited by DanS; March 10, 2003, 11:25.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                  • #69
                    ...checking it twice...

                    Long time member @ Apolyton
                    Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                    • #70
                      Dan, are you personally boycotting French goods?
                      Long time member @ Apolyton
                      Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                      • #71
                        That's the problem. Don't think I buy too many French goods in the first place.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by DanS
                          Believe it or not, Lancer. That's the way they look at it.

                          I think we should punish France for working against us on what we believe to be a threat against the US. Don't know how, but we should be working up a list...
                          Punishment is a totally new concept in peace time. It will be quite difficult to enforce anyway since the US are tied by the free and fair trade principles; and within (?) those principles, they have not been so kind generally (business is business ...). Therefore, may I ask what kind of punishment, other that of an economic nature, you have in mind?
                          Statistical anomaly.
                          The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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                          • #73
                            Yes, I have the same problem.
                            Long time member @ Apolyton
                            Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                            • #74
                              Therefore, may I ask what kind of punishment, other that of an economic nature, you have in mind?

                              That's the problem. We don't have a good list. Snub their ambassador at dinner parties?

                              Expelling a couple of intelligence officers would be fun. Cutting off any pending military tech transfer would perhaps be useful. Make France persona non grata in Baghdad once the war goes down. Hmmm... Pretty weak, I have to admit.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                DanS: I'm not mixing opposition with hatred. But ignorance of public opinion by the government may create it, after a time.

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