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Europe-US Split ... Ramifications May Last For Years
Actually, going to the UN wasn't a compromise for the US. It was simply a better way to acheive their aims. By going before the UN and allowing the inspectors into Iraq, the US gained the time it needed to build up its forces with which to attack Iraq. With the UN debate as cover, regardless of how it turns out, the US can claim to its own citizens it has done what was required of it, rather than simply looking like a naked aggressor. Our aggression is properly clothed.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Faults on both sides to be sure. I suspect the seeds of this were sown in some of the long running Europe-US trade disputes, bananas anyone?
Shortly after Bush came to power he introduced punitive tariffs on steel imports. As a way of keeping cheap Far East steel out of the US no problem. There was some dumping of steel in Europe but we could have introduced import tariffs too. The real annoyance was that the tariffs were applied to specialist steels not manufactured in the US but imported from Europe, particularly the UK. That sent the message that Bush was US first, last and everywhere in between - all take and no give (and that he can't shoot straight).
It is unforgiveable that Chirac and Schroeder have chosen to play out internal European politics on who influences Europe on the world stage but hopefully they will face the consequences for that directly.
The bottom line is that the size of the rift will depend which of the current leaders are still in power in two or three years time.
Originally posted by Lancer
Please let him watch the late movie as we wouldn't want him to starve to death.
Thanks for caring so much for me . What I didn't mention is, that my hypothetical mum wanted to force me to have my dinner at McDonalds.
Seriously, consumer level boycotts are so silly. Did you buy French wine and German cars so far (if at all) because you like France and Germany? Hardly. You, or let's say most customers, bought them because they're good. Now let's assume you and a few of your fellows really boycott them in the future. This will mean, you at free will switch to second tier products. The company you attack won't be harmed much, they will either sell more cars in other countries, or they have to fire a couple of workers. Perhaps a few from unrentable Chrysler? Which brings to me another question. Would you buy a Chrysler?
Nah, I'm a Ford guy, just had a nice rant. My wine is usually twist off, a tech the French haven't figured out yet. Though I recently graduated to wine from Chile. Priced like a twist off, but uses a cork.
Long time member @ Apolyton
Civilization player since the dawn of time
Yes Lancer, obviously the reason why imported french wine bottles aren't twist off instead of with corks is 'cause the french haven't got the technology to do so.
Originally posted by Lancer
Nah, I'm a Ford guy, just had a nice rant. My wine is usually twist off, a tech the French haven't figured out yet. Though I recently graduated to wine from Chile. Priced like a twist off, but uses a cork.
I don't drink wine at all (I'm a beer guy ) and am driving a japanese car. I wouldn't consider to buy an American car (not even Ford or GM/Opel, which are produced here), but that has more to do with quality and less with foreign policy. I wouldn't consider to hurt myself with a silly self-restriction. Despite the fact, that I don't like (may I say really hate) the current regime in Washington, America is still an amazing country for me and many Americans are good friends. Why should I hurt them? And btw: I don't like Schroeder either.
I've maintained for a long time that France and Germany are not our allies. They only think with their pocketbook, and in this case, that would be hurt by changing the Iraqi regime. Its time to withdraw our troops from continental europe and stop helping their economies.
Originally posted by SpencerH
I've maintained for a long time that France and Germany are not our allies. They only think with their pocketbook, and in this case, that would be hurt by changing the Iraqi regime. Its time to withdraw our troops from continental europe and stop helping their economies.
Another cheapo hype argument.
It's true, the US forces will be completely withdrawn. This is known since long and has nothing to do with the current disharmony. They go to Eastern Europe for 2 reasons. 1- it's cheaper there and 2- they're closer to Russia. If it were for the current argument, explain me why they'll be withdrawn from UK and Italy as well, although both countries support the US?
It really doesn't matter much. There are, what, some 70,000 left here, most of which are absent most of the time anyway (in Yugoslavia/Afghanistan/Gulf region etc) and this way can't raise our economy significantly.
The big cut already was in the early nineties, when the occupation of Germany ended and the US forces were reduced from several hundred thousands to the mentioned 70,000 NATO contingent. Mind you, that time it was Germany, who asked the US forces to leave. So the economical drawback couldn't really hurt much.
What concerns the upcoming complete withdrawal of the US forces... well, you are overestimating our interest. It's not that we're saying "Holy ****, now that will hurt us severely!" . Neither will we dance in the streets. The reaction most likely will be "So the Americans pull their forces out. And what else did happen?"
The use of the phrase "old Europe" is a sign of the infamous american hybris. Since the birth of the american nation there has been in their self image as the worlds last hope, a priore a little bit better than the "old world". Sometimes it's portrayed in biblical word, sometimes it's not. It has always been a obstruction to more objective analysis in the history of american international politics.
That's right, and in the ancient Greek plays, hybris always led to a downfall
"An archaeologist is the best husband a women can have; the older she gets, the more interested he is in her." - Agatha Christie
"Non mortem timemus, sed cogitationem mortis." - Seneca
. What I didn't mention is, that my hypothetical mum wanted to force me to have my dinner at McDonalds. 
) and am driving a japanese car. I wouldn't consider to buy an American car (not even Ford or GM/Opel, which are produced here), but that has more to do with quality and less with foreign policy. I wouldn't consider to hurt myself with a silly self-restriction. Despite the fact, that I don't like (may I say really hate) the current regime in Washington, America is still an amazing country for me and many Americans are good friends. Why should I hurt them? And btw: I don't like Schroeder either.
. Neither will we dance in the streets. The reaction most likely will be "So the Americans pull their forces out. And what else did happen?"
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