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Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

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  • Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

    Ok I admit, I really haven't made up my mind about if I support the war or not. My best friend has been activated, and it's a matter of days before they fly her to the gulf, and she has my total support. Yet all of this time one thing has really been standing out in my mind. Robert E. Lee (yea that confederate general guy) said after the battle of Fredericksburg in december of 1862 that "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it," and that quotation just stuck with me. It seems to me that despite all of the outpouring of opposition for the war, that as far as America goes, the war won't be that terrible for us, and I think our leadership knows that. I have heard causulty predictions that our losses could be anywhere from 100-10,000 but most likely it will be on the mid to lower end. Although it will cost billions of dollars, it really won't have that much impact on the taxes we pay or the overall fiscal health of the US, and securing Iraqi oil for the world market should help the economy. There are some doomsayers both here at apolyton and in outside world that proclaim this war will bury a generation of americans, and other bs like that, but then again with the first war there was talk of how formible the Republican Guard would be in battle.

    It seems to me that American military power can effortlessly destroy the Iraqi government with little battlefield consequences for the US, and the fact that it is so easy is why we are so eager. It's even seductive to me; I mean I think the stated aims are completely bs. As far as I know Israel or Iran could both be accused of basically everything that Iraq is, and yet we praise Israel ignore Iran and condemn Iraq. I personally think Saddam is a ruthless leader that doesn't benefit either his people or the world, yet I know that an ideal U.N. wasn't created to rubberstamp invasion plans. I don't know if America has the moral right to impose it's will on Iraq, but since it's so easy to do, I ask myself why not?

    It seems as war becomes more one sided, then it seems their are more reasons to employee force since there are fewer consequences, and less reason to try and resolve conflicts through diplomacy. So as war becomes less terrible are we growing more fond of it as a nation? Also if it is less terrible, is it a bad thing that we may be growing too fond of it?

    What are your thoughts on this?

  • #2
    The term "splendid little war" was coined to describe the Spanish-American War, and the very notion probably would make Lee roll over in his grave. So I was struck recently by a piece in Salon that suggested that the best historical analogy for right now is not 1939 or 1956 but 1898: led by a largely idea-free president who is widely seen as a puppet of moneyed interests, an aimless U.S. public forgets its many domestic problems and becomes wildly enthusiastic about a small, winnable war against a weak nation far away from home. I'm fully aware of the danger of historical anaology (I read the 'poly thread and everything ) but I've got to say, that one worked for me.
    Last edited by Rufus T. Firefly; March 1, 2003, 04:10.
    "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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    • #3
      Rufus,

      i guess my questions is are "splendid little wars" (good analogy btw) a bad thing? While the Iraqi people will certainly suffer and die because of US military action, they are suffering and dying anyways. We don't have to carpet bomb Bagdad to hit the targets we need to go after, and the war should be quick. As civilians are less subject to the horrors of wars, and we can effortlessly pound our opponents into dust with our high tech weapons, does that mean their is less justification needed from the ends to exonorate the means? If the means aren't as bad as what they were 100 years ago, does this lower the bar in any kind of way on the justifable use of force? Also does American seem to be growing more bold in it's use of force because of its previous successes? Obviously if Afganistan had of turned into another Vietnam and thousands of American troops were coming home in body bags Bush wouldn't be beating the war drums for Iraq. Does these easy made for TV wars encourage militarism because they aren't really terrible as far as the consequences to America goes?

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      • #4
        Well, yes, I would say splendid little wars are a very bad thing (I thought I was clear, but I am still on my first cup of coffee so maybe I wasn't). And I agree that tv makes it worse. The striking thing about Gulf War I was that the whole thing was staged and conducted as if it were a TV show; it seems like "manage the media" is really the only lesson our politicians took away from Vietnam, and th media themselves have yet to object. Staging wars as tv shows certainly makes them seem unreal and without consequence. The only up side of this -- and this is a private theory I've been nurturing for while -- is that politicians who conduct such wars may not get any benefit from doing so: Daddy Bush went from a 91% post-war approval rating to losing re-election 18 months later, and I've always suspected that part of that was that the war itself was simply a highly-rated tv show, and who's gonna vote for that? It's like electing the the programmer of a "Brady Bunch" marathon.
        "I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin

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        • #5
          I've heard that iraqi army are already trying to get some white flags. No I'm serious. Although this was on a conservative talk show, so who knows where that information comes from. But it supposedly came from Iraqi military defectors.

          In any case if that is true this war will be a walk in the park. not much tougher than guld war one.

          I truelly believe standing up to this dictators is the best solution. Many people over there view americans as weak. And after 8 years of Bill Clinton I can't blame them. They figure they can manipulate us and we can't do anything about it. It is time to be strong and stand up to bad men. Often bullies will back down from a fight. While I can't say I'm 100% sure of this. I do think we lessen the chances of terrorism by attacking.

          The think about anti-war people is I think they are scared. Their anti-war ideas are driven out of fear. They fear the terrorist attacks. That is a weakness. We can't avoid war because we are afraid. We must be strong as a nation.

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          • #6
            led by a largely idea-free president who is widely seen as a puppet of moneyed interests,

            Hey! The only person who actually had the guts to oppose the war in power was precisely the president back then, unless my mind has completely gone. He dragged his feet and stalled as long as possible, but the public- and therefore Congress- was really quite fired up about the thing. I also remember good ol' Teddy Roosevelt saying that McKinley "Had the backbone of a chocolate eclair" to the newspapers while trying to whip up support for the war himself, totally missing that it required backbone to oppose the war, not to support it.

            Not a bad analogy, actually, but I disagree with that part.
            All syllogisms have three parts.
            Therefore this is not a syllogism.

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            • #7
              It's sad though, because that ship most likely did have a boiler explosion. Such is the way thing work I suppose.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dissident
                Many people over there view americans as weak. And after 8 years of Bill Clinton I can't blame them. They figure they can manipulate us and we can't do anything about it.
                I don't think this is true. I think, if anything, they are scared of the US. But this is more in cultural terms than physical ones. They are scared that the US way of life (I am avoiding using the word 'culture') will erode their own and that everything they believe in will be lost. And I think this is a reasonable concern - because it will happen.

                I also think that they have been conditioned into believing that the Americans are 'evil'. That the US (and the west generally) is deliberately enforcing its cultural dominance on the world in an attempt to destroy the muslim (or whatever) way of life. In a way, I think this is true - it is deliberate - but it is done out of ignorance rather than evil intent.

                I think the average american doesn't see Iraqis as 'real people' - if they don't have a car and a dog and a tv and 2.4 kids they are somehow 'something else', so it is OK to kill them.

                The think about anti-war people is I think they are scared. Their anti-war ideas are driven out of fear. They fear the terrorist attacks. That is a weakness. We can't avoid war because we are afraid. We must be strong as a nation.
                This is just silly. The anti-war people are not 'driven out of fear' (although you could say they are driven out of fear of doing something wrong I suppose). They genuinely believe that fighting an unnecessary war which will lead to the deaths of thousands is wrong.

                (For the record I am not necessarily against the war.)

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                • #9
                  Re: Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

                  Originally posted by korn469
                  Robert E. Lee (yea that confederate general guy) said after the battle of Fredericksburg in december of 1862 that "It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it," and that quotation just stuck with me.
                  Maybe that's why the US troops got the hell out of Somalia? Unable to hide behind precision bombs and cruise missiles, people suddenly found that old rifles kill as well as new ones.
                  (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                  (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                  (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

                    Originally posted by Urban Ranger
                    Maybe that's why the US troops got the hell out of Somalia?
                    We left because we had no real compelling reason to be there.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Re: Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

                      Originally posted by DinoDoc

                      We left because we had no real compelling reason to be there.

                      If you read up about the true story about events in Somalia and "Black Hawk Down" and don't believe the fictionalised & utter patriotric crap that Hollywood came up with then you'd know that to be somewhat wrong.

                      You did have a compelling reason to be there, just not a very savoury one.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dissident



                        I truelly believe standing up to this dictators is the best solution.
                        Yes, unfortunately the United States has more experience putting them in power and supporting them, than in standing up to them.

                        Examples (not an exhaustive list):

                        Ferdinand Marcos, Mobutu Sese Seko, Castillo Armas, Anastasio Somoza, Papa Doc Duvalier, Rafael Trujillo, the last Shah of Iran, Zia ul Haq, Augusto Pinochet, Sukarno and Suharto, Ngo Dinh Diem... and that leaves out El Salvador, Honduras, other South American countries, other African countries, countries in the Middle East...

                        I'm aware of Soviet support for other repressive regimes and murderers- but aren't we (meaning the West) meant to be the good guys? And does that mean supporting any of the above?
                        Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                        ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                        • #13
                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Robert E. Lee and Gulf War II

                          Originally posted by Demerzel
                          You did have a compelling reason to be there, just not a very savoury one.
                          I'm listening.
                          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Korn - I've read just the first post - and you summed up the facts!

                            What else than to ask you it might not be great for you but what about the ones that are on the other side?

                            Kill them because you can, as they do not want to be obedient?

                            Kill them beacuse it is in your interest and it is so easy?

                            Is murder for your interests wrong?. (as clearly we both can agree that Saddam was not picked because he is the "worst" dictator on the planet)

                            Not to mention that you have other means to achieve the goals. But war seem to have some other benefits for the current democratically elected administration
                            Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                            GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
                              Is [war] for your interests wrong?.
                              I don't believe so. I wish someone could convince me that it actually did serve our interests though.
                              I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                              For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

                              Comment

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