US government seizes website

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
One can hardly call being coerced into giving up the website as part of a plea bargain (i.e. to avoid a harsher sentence) as being strictly voluntary.

The man pleaded guilty, and as terms for a reduced sentence gave up the site which sold the illegal merchandise...

What's so earth-shattering about this?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher

The man pleaded guilty, and as terms for a reduced sentence gave up the site which sold the illegal merchandise...

What's so earth-shattering about this?

Just saying it's not "voluntary," that's all.

I'm sure there's similar precedent in Criminal Law. If I use my house to operate an illegal operation, I believe the government can seize it.

[DinoDoc]

Why shouldn't the government be able to sieze what has been declared a criminal enterprise?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Just saying it's not "voluntary," that's all.

It is voluntary, he wasn't forced to do it like being implied here. Plea bargains are voluntary you know.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher

It is voluntary, he wasn't forced to do it like being implied here.

As I said, if I plea bargain for a lighter jail sentence, that doesn't mean I'm going to jail voluntarily.

Plea bargains are voluntary in a limited sense, yes, but I'm sure that the person pleading would MOST like not to have had criminal charges brought in the first place.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Asher

The man pleaded guilty, and as terms for a reduced sentence gave up the site which sold the illegal merchandise...

What's so earth-shattering about this?

It´s not eart-shattering.

But I agree with Plato insofar as I am *very* sceptical about *any* government inroads against freedom on the net.

Given the fact that the net is the only balanced info source. (Most of the info is useless, but given that everyone has equal rights, it´s truely balanced.)

[Asher]

monkspider:

I never knew the modchip I had on my PSone to play Japanese games constituted piracy.

Have you ever been to ISONews?

The entire site is based around game piracy. When they distribute Xbox/PS2/PC game CD images for free, and then at the same time sell mod chips, you can be pretty damn sure those mod chips' primary use is piracy.

Not that it matters, of course, modding the game consoles in any way is illegal in the US.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Asher
monkspider:

Have you ever been to ISONews?

The entire site is based around game piracy. When they distribute Xbox/PS2/PC game CD images for free, and then at the same time sell mod chips, you can be pretty damn sure those mod chips' primary use is piracy.

Have you? Where do you get the idea they were distrubuting game images? The site had no illegal material on it. In fact what they were busted for was selling modchips. AFAIK they simply announced when certain games were pirated and what groups were responsible.

not that it matters, of course, modding the game consoles in any way is illegal in the US.

Of course, the USA is about the only place, and even here it is in question. "Some hackers have seized on mod chips as a vehicle to run Linux on the Xbox. Advocates argue such legitimate, nonpiracy uses of mod chips disqualify them as "circumvention devices" under the DMCA." (source: www.news.com)
And of course, it goes without saying that being illegal does not make something immoral.

[Asher]

Originally posted by monkspider
Have you?

For a couple years now...

Where do you get the idea they were distrubuting game images? The site had no illegal material on it. In fact what they were busted for was selling modchips. AFAIK they simply announced when certain games were pirated and what groups were responsible.

That's true, technically it was just a news service of what games/ISOs are now available. But it's still a piracy hangout...

And of course, it goes without saying that being illegal does not make something immoral.

I disagree with thos advocates. When your business model involves selling hardware at a huge loss and making money back up in the game sales department, and your user agreement states you can't modify the hardware, modifying the hardware is both immoral and illegal.

[rah]

ANOTHER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INTERNET BOONDOGGLE.

U.S. hauls in dealers of bongs, roach clips
Operation Pipe Dreams hits Net sellers


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By Bryan A. Keogh
Washington Bureau
Published February 25, 2003

WASHINGTON -- Signaling the start of a new front in the campaign against illegal drugs, federal authorities charged 55 people Monday with trafficking in drug paraphernalia in an investigation that focused on those who advertise and sell such items on the Internet.

Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft, standing with a phalanx of other law-enforcement officials who participated in the nationwide investigation, said that by targeting major paraphernalia distributors the government was dealing the drug trade a sharp blow.

The investigation--a two-pronged effort known as Operation Pipe Dreams and Operation Headhunter--led to raids Monday in which officials confiscated thousands of tons of drug paraphernalia and tens of millions of dollars, and made numerous arrests, said Mary Beth Buchanan, the U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh whose office is coordinating the investigation with the Drug Enforcement Administration.

"It is an extremely profitable, illegal business," Buchanan said.

But some critics said an investigation targeting such items as bongs and roach clips showed little more than political grandstanding, misplaced priorities and a waste of federal resources, particularly as the United States is waging a more pressing war against terrorism.

"At a time of intense alert regarding the terrorist threat, this is a pretty pathetic waste of criminal justice resources," said Eric Sterling, president of the Criminal Justice Policy Foundation, a liberal think tank. "Is this a high priority when criminal justice resources are stretched so thinly?"

Justice Department officials defended the drug paraphernalia investigation.

"It's not a waste of resources. It's still against the law," said Drew Wade, a department spokesman. "The federal government has the right and obligation to enforce federal laws."

The investigation targeted distributors and shops selling such items as marijuana pipes, bongs and miniature scales, focusing on their sale over the Internet and by direct mail.

Officials said the growth of the Internet has opened a major avenue for the sale of drug paraphernalia, as it has for other illegal items, from child pornography to drugs obtained without prescription.

"With the advent of the Internet, the illegal drug paraphernalia industry has exploded," Ashcroft said.

Federal authorities said they were obtaining court orders to shut down 11 Internet sites that market drug paraphernalia, and that they would direct visitors to those sites to a Drug Enforcement Administration Web site that states why the site was taken offline.

Ashcroft said drug paraphernalia distributors often target children in their marketing schemes, using cartoon characters and other gimmicks to entice young buyers. The Internet's ability to reach inside homes makes such schemes "even more frightening," the attorney general said.

Officials emphasized that some of the items were designed to appeal to youth, such as marijuana pipes disguised as common objects such as highlighter markers, lipstick and flashlights. To support her contention that these pipes are marketed to teenagers, Buchanan said these are the types of items high school principals have been confiscating.

Although drug paraphernalia are widely available in tobacco stores, so-called head shops and record stores, they are illegal to sell or possess in the U.S. According to federal law, drug paraphernalia are defined as anything primarily intended to be used in the processing, distribution or consumption of a controlled substance.

The 55 people charged face penalties of up to 3 years in prison and fines of up to $250,000. Ashcroft also said federal authorities would confiscate any property or equipment used in the manufacturing of drug paraphernalia.

Federal indictments were brought against 27 people in Pittsburgh, nine in Des Moines and 19 others elsewhere in the U.S.

Besides the DEA and six U.S. attorneys, the investigation involved the U.S. Marshals Service, the Secret Service, the Customs Service and the Postal Inspection Service.

While most of the indictments were against companies that authorities said were involved in large-scale manufacturing and distribution of drug paraphernalia, some involved local head shops that sell pipes and bongs directly to consumers.

Describing marijuana as the drug that teenagers are most at risk to abuse, John Walters, director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, said eliminating the drug paraphernalia market was as important as treatment and prevention in curbing drug use among young people.

Law-enforcement officials also criticized distributors of drug paraphernalia for their roles in the illegal drug trade and said they shared responsibility for the violence it accompanies.

"People selling drug paraphernalia are, in essence, no different than drug dealers," said John Brown, acting administrator of the DEA. "They are as much a part of drug trafficking as silencers are a part of criminal homicide."

But Ethan Nadelmann, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, a group opposed to the government's anti-drug effort, questioned the assertion that cracking down on the drug paraphernalia industry would make high school students less likely to smoke marijuana.

"It seems like an absurd diversion and waste of resources," Nadelmann said. "I think what it represents is an increasing politicization of the war on drugs."


Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

[Ramo]

The DMCA itself is a totally unjustified, authoritarian law.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Asher

I disagree with thos advocates. When your business model involves selling hardware at a huge loss and making money back up in the game sales department, and your user agreement states you can't modify the hardware, modifying the hardware is both immoral and illegal.

User agreements aren't divine mandates. A user mandate could state that you should stand on your head and do the hokey-pokey before turning the console on, but that doesn't mean you have to. Not to seem dismissive of user agreements in general, but if certain portions of them are clearly to the detriment of the consumer, they should be ignored.
Do you know how many legitimate uses there are for modchips?
-Using different operating systems (e.g Linux on XBOX)
-Playing games from different regions that you would not be able to otherwise (or playing them before they are released in NA).
-Making backup copies of games in case the originals become too damaged to play. (I know I wish I had done this with some Playstation games my sister destroyed).
-Playing "modded" versions of original games (I recall Final Fantasy VII being modded by some gamers a while back, but you needed a modchip to play their new version)

Saying that modding hardware is not only illegal but immoral is very hard to defend. It can only be so if you feel the uses stated above are immoral. While they could be used for bad stuff like piracy, it is difficult to prove that a majority or even a plurality of mod chips are used explicitly for the purposes of piracy. Would you like to come out in front of all of Apolyton and state that you find the above uses immoral?

[Jac de Molay]

That paraphenalia bust is about the biggest waste of government time and resources I 've ever seen.

[Asher]

Originally posted by monkspider
User agreements aren't divine mandates.

If you don't want to agree to the agreement, don't buy the product.

You're not just buying a physical product when you buy a game console, you're buying the right to play games. It may seem like semantics, but it's the reason why modifying it to play things other than the games they allow is illegal.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. You shouldn't buy it then mod it because you think it's "immoral" what they're doing (the irony is great fun thuogh).

Do you know how many legitimate uses there are for modchips?
-Using different operating systems (e.g Linux on XBOX)

Not a legitamate use.

-Playing games from different regions that you would not be able to otherwise (or playing them before they are released in NA).

I've always hated region locking, but this isn't as popular as piracy. Hell, on a college campus here soooo many people have modchips, and by far most of them use it to download and burn games and pirate, only a couple people I know use it to import.

-Making backup copies of games in case the originals become too damaged to play. (I know I wish I had done this with some Playstation games my sister destroyed).

Companies like EA send you a replacement disc if you send them the damaged one.

-Playing "modded" versions of original games (I recall Final Fantasy VII being modded by some gamers a while back, but you needed a modchip to play their new version)

Never heard of this. But by the same token, this is why I'm so glad MS bans people for life if they connect to Xbox Live with a modded box -- prevents people from playing modded versions of games.

Saying that modding hardware is not only illegal but immoral is very hard to defend.

It's painfully simple.
The terms you buy the device under specify you can't, if you don't want to agree to them, don't purchase the device. It's immoral AND illegal to buy it and break those terms, whether you think you should be able to is not the point.

[Sava]

Ahhh, Bush's America, ain't it great?