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Has the right to dissent in this country vanished since 9/11?

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  • Has the right to dissent in this country vanished since 9/11?

    Reading this article has caused me to think that perhaps it is so. There are many other examples of course.
    ---------------------
    A Silent Protest on the Basketball Court
    by Janet Paskin

    NEWBURGH — Fans packed the stands before the women's basketball game at Mount St. Mary College last night. They held flags. And they waited.

    They got what they came for. As Mount St. Mary student Sara Klemeshefsky sang "The Star-Spangled Banner,'' Manhattanville's Toni Smith turned to the side, away from the American flag, and faced the floor.

    She held tight the hand of freshman teammate Dionne Walker. When the anthem was done, Walker gave Smith a hug.

    Smith has made the same quiet quarter-turn all season, usually without incident. But on Feb. 11, the team traveled to the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, where more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of "U-S-A" and "Leave our country." Since then, word has spread.

    The Mount St. Mary student government spent more than $100 on small flags and handed them out before the game. More than 500 filled the small gym and jeered Smith at every opportunity. Smith picked up two fouls in the first 2:16 and sat the rest of the half, prompting a dissatisfied crowd to chant, "We want Toni." The crowd dwindled by halftime and quieted, more interested in the two-point game that Mount St. Mary won, 67-65. The remaining fans stood and sang "God Bless America" as the clock ran out.

    "It's disgraceful," said Mount St. Mary junior Jess Varvatsas, who wore a Stars and Stripes halter top and brought a flag to the gym. "I'm against the war, but the flag stands for more than war."

    They, like everyone else, assumed that Smith turns away to protest America's march toward the war with Iraq. That's part of it, Smith said in a written statement.

    "For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

    Until last night, Smith had kept her rationale to herself. She refused to discuss her views with the media and Manhattanville President Richard Berman, who offered Smith a hug and words of support early in the season.

    "I told her I think what she's doing is courageous and difficult," said Berman, who protested the Vietnam War while a student at Michigan in the 1960s. "But that in this community we respect one another's views, and whether I agree or disagree is irrelevant. I asked her if she wanted to talk about the issues, and she said no."

    In Smith's online profile, which is linked to the team's roster, Smith posted two quotes: "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything" and "It will be a great day when our schools get all the money they need and the military has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber."

    Smith's refusal to face the flag, however, went unnoticed until some players and their parents mentioned it to first-year coach Shawn Lincoln. He spoke with Smith, then held a team meeting.

    "The team is like any other collection of people," Lincoln said. "Everybody has their own beliefs and opinions, and we're no different."

    Lincoln refused to discuss the team's reaction.

    That was the end of the issue internally for the team, which, at 15-9, has proceeded to have one of the best seasons in the history of Manhattanville women's basketball.

    But Smith's protest did not fade into the background for opponents. By a fluke of scheduling, Manhattanville played Skyline conference rival St. Joseph's twice in a week. Three of St. Joseph's players have friends or family in active military service, and after the second game, St. Joseph's Christine Argentina yelled at Smith.

    "After the game, we were walking down the line, and my point guard called her a jerk and (said) 'You've got a lot of nerve' and got in her face," said St. Joseph's coach Dennis Case, whose son, Dwayne, is with the Merchant Marine in the Mediterranean Sea.

    "I supported her," Case said of Argentina, whose brother is in the Middle East. "If Toni Smith has First Amendment rights to not face the flag, then my point guard has First Amendment rights to tell her what she thinks of that. Under no circumstances would I ever reprimand her for that."

    Argentina's comments were mild compared to what Smith faced at USMMA six days later. More than 300 midshipmen packed the stands, a record turnout for the winless Mariners. The fans hung flags from the rafters, waved them in the stands and wrapped them around their shoulders. During "The Star-Spangled Banner," Smith looked at the floor — the only place in the gym that wasn't red, white and blue. At halftime, 50 plebes (freshmen), each carrying a flag, marched into the gym and stood across from the Valiants' bench. They stayed there until the game was over.

    "Every time she got a ball, (the fans) were yelling and waving their flags," USMMA sports information director Kim McNulty said. "We were proud of the professionalism with which the midshipmen displayed their feelings. They did nothing to offend or make the game an unsafe atmosphere. They were expressing their opinion."

    Smith has stood firm in the face of her detractors. In her statement, she wrote, "It is my right as an American to stand for my beliefs the way others have done against me. ... Patriotism can be shown in many ways, but those who choose to do so by saluting the flag should recognize that the American flag stands for individuality and freedom. Therefore, any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different."
    -------------------------------

    It is amazing how much hatred and vitrol one encounters in this country for showing even the slightest willingness to second-guess the government. All I can say is, God bless this girl, God bless her. Her courage in the face of such tremendous ignorance and hatred will one day be greatly rewarded.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    So wait... you have the right to dissent, but you don't have the right to dissent to that dissent?

    Please, at least be consistant.
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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    • #3
      "But on Feb. 11, the team traveled to the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, where more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of "U-S-A" and "Leave our country." Since then, word has spread. "

      So the stupid bint goes to a marine academy and disses that which they have dedicated a portion of their lives to, and now doesn't understand why they're pissed at her?

      Conversely, don't the marines have a right to protest as well?

      Comment


      • #4
        facism rears its ugly head. i weep for america
        "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
        'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

        Comment


        • #5
          Just because you hold an unpopular opinion doesn't mean everyone will be nice about it.

          Most everyone I know on the gringo side of the border has plenty to say about the Bush administration, the war with Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, etc. Maybe it's how the message is delivered.
          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

          Comment


          • #6
            There's a difference between protesting what you consider to be injustice, and protesting other people expressing their opinions. Shouting at people with whom you disagree to "leave our country" is repugnant. Free speech, yes, but dispicable nonetheless.

            I think this girl has a lot more courage than those shouting marines do. Perhaps someone should remind them of the American ideals they are supposedly fighting to protect.
            Tutto nel mondo è burla

            Comment


            • #7
              So if people are rude to participants in a Klan rally or a Neo-nazi rally, that's a bad thing?

              Or is it just left-leaning forms of "dissent" or "protest" or whatever you want to call it that should be treated with deference?
              When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                So wait... you have the right to dissent, but you don't have the right to dissent to that dissent?

                Please, at least be consistant.
                I'll bite Imran. Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech. For example, if someone refused to rise for the national anthem at a baseball game, they would receive harsh verbal abuse, and possibly even physical violence. There is no counter-measure to this, there are no dissenters who verbally or physically abuse the people who are anti-dissenters simply because the anti-dissenters make up the better part of the society. This therefore effectively bullies dissidents to kowtow to the official government line at the point of a proverbial sword.
                http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  to them i would simply say "i do not agree with what you say but i support your right to say it."
                  "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                  'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't recall ever saying the Klan or Neo-Nazis didn't have a right to express their opinions.

                    It's using a rusty old canard to throw out the "leftists only want their own speech protected!" line, especially considering that the ACLU, as leftist as organization as can be, has consistently fought for the protection of all speech, including right wing dogma.
                    Tutto nel mondo è burla

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech.


                      Actually it is part and parcel of free speech. You have the free speach RIGHT to respond with anger and vitrol to someone's dissent. That is what free speech is about too, you know.

                      Is it unacceptable for people to respond with hatred and vitrol against someone who says 'September 11th was justified'?
                      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It was just a simple question. Gee, no need to get so defensive.

                        Seriously, though, some forms of "free speech" are inflammatory, and will provoke an emotional reaction from other people around - whether it's a flag-burning, or a cross-burning.

                        It's melodramatic as hell (which seems to me to be more a province of the left than the right, I hear a lot more whiny lefties than righties, maybe it's the John Wayne syndrome ), to talk about losing "the right" to dissent or to free speech because of an emotional reaction by some of the people exposed to that speech.

                        It's not like she's arrested, charged with sedition, firebombed out of her house, blacklisted by the government, or whatever - she protested in a way that a lot of individuals found offensive, so they reacted emotionally. A lot of symbolic protest is intended to do just that, whether it's from the right or from the left.
                        When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                          Obviously the problem is the nature of the anti-dissenters who respond with absolute hatred and vitrol, which is absolutely unacceptable for a country that prides itself in it's right to free speech.


                          Actually it is part and parcel of free speech. You have the free speach RIGHT to respond with anger and vitrol to someone's dissent. That is what free speech is about too, you know.
                          Of course, however, this is a simplistic approach that ignores the reality of the situation we face. Fear of slander or physical violence creates a sword which forces one to kowtow to the forces of mainstream thought. Having the right to free speech is irrelevent when one is too frightened of the consequences of actually using it. To put things in a perspective you may be more sympathetic to, imagine another world where people who espoused capitalist beliefs were immediately attacked, physically or verbally, by patriots proud of their socialist heritage. Would you so enthusiastically embrace these anti-dissenters?
                          Is it unacceptable for people to respond with hatred and vitrol against someone who says 'September 11th was justified'?
                          In a word, no. It's not unacceptable. You may not agree, but these people are entitled to their opinions, just as fascists and KKK members are.
                          http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Monkspider: I don't see where she was threatened with physical violence.

                            Furthermore, I support her right to her opinion and her willingness to express it. I encourage her to vocally stand up for her beliefs.

                            I also support my right to vocally express my absolute and total disagreement with them.

                            In America, it is our differences, and our courage to state them that makes us great.
                            "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                            • #15
                              I dont see whats so offensive about it. Its not like shes burning a flag (or something similar).

                              "For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me," Smith wrote. "As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag."

                              While I disagree with her comment, I applaud the fact that she appears to be literate, has a moral opinion, and is willing to stand up for it.

                              "It's disgraceful," said Mount St. Mary junior Jess Varvatsas, who wore a Stars and Stripes halter top and brought a flag to the gym.

                              It used to be that stars and stripes clothing was 'disgraceful' too.
                              We need seperate human-only games for MP/PBEM that dont include the over-simplifications required to have a good AI
                              If any man be thirsty, let him come unto me and drink. Vampire 7:37
                              Just one old soldiers opinion. E Tenebris Lux. Pax quaeritur bello.

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