Some poems about life in an occupied country...

[Datajack Franit]

they are creating a generation of suicide bombers

[Sirotnikov]

Interesting (though poorly translated ) article about bias in the media.

Can these pictures lie?

The war in the Near East is led also in the heads of the watching world. For example with the photo of the shot Palestinian boy - who shot however Muhammad aluminium-Dura really?

Of Norbert Jessen

Muhammad aluminium-Dura was twelve, when he died. If a child dies, that is always tragic. But Muhammad aluminium-Dura did not die simply, it was killed. Which seems again in Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Netanya or Ramallah less tragically than elsewhere, because it is not the only killed child. Who knows already the others, which died here - shot Palestinian and Israeli blown up into air. Muhammad aluminium-Dura s death however particularly moved the world - its death was filmed.

No other medium leads more near to the battleground than the camera. Long the media are included into the fights: Because the picture of only one corpse seems to say more than the number, the message of the thousand corpses, whom there were in this Intifada war. Who has the dramatic picture, the more convincing thing, more brutal? This question pushes itself ever further forward, before the causes behind the pictures. Pictures make opinion. And prejudices. The picture for instance of the bulligen Israeli Grenzer with impact club behind a bleeding young man: Symbol for crew supremacy and humiliated faint of the occupied ones. Which one does not see so easily: Before the Grenzer is an Israeli, whom the policeman saved ", flogged ".

What states the picture of the Haeufchen misery in the catches of the Israeli police - from the Palestinian boy, who makes itself before fear into the trousers? And which the picture of the same boy, who before throws minutes stones on the policemen? Only both together say the truth.

The camera cannot only document force, it can it also motivate. Hours and days of futile waiting can hide themselves behind a picture of dramatic force. If the reporter is at time pressure, the editorship waits for a picture of the dramatic front happening, which calms down now however straight - then the temptation comes. The camera is set up in such a way that it works like a request. For a long time Palestinian young people do not let be asked. Connoisseurs of the scene recognize such ordered protests easily. Only - also those are "genuine" pictures. Also that is war. Soldiers shoot back also here, demonstrators are met.

A classical author also: Tanks drive by the cities and roll over parking cars. The intelligent adjacents resident turn their cars off in time in the yard. Only the photographer places its (borrow)Auto off, where it has a good chance, to be rolled over. Or however the tank driver rolls over a car, which would be to be umfahren with something trouble - he noticed and knows the camera, what it by it expected.

Still on Sunday Gideon Meir of the Israeli State Department warned to regard of Israel fight for clearing-up as lost. "only on a long-term basis success is to be estimated at this front. So certain pictures can show at short notice large effect. But inquiries over months show that we have increasing success on the picture of the public opinion in the USA." Pictures everywhere. War makes pictures, and pictures make war. Of Israel again and again refers army speaker to the kind, "as the Palestinians zynisch their children to the front sends", where they come into the fire of the soldiers. And the Palestinians spend not rarely their dates for "spontaneous people unrests" already at the vortag to the press. If it applies to demonstrate employment will they call the cameras, in order to convince the world that they keep children away from demonstrations - the policemen place themselves to them then into the way, instead of schluerfen far dte. Such background spectators such as readers are not withheld. They are only more difficult. They do not have the striking power of pictures of the force or also the written reporting over the martial collision. It concerns to most journalist a balanced reporting between Palestinian and Israeli side. Ricardo Cristiano is considered there as exception. The TV tV-Korrespondent of the Italian RAI apologized with the Palestinian press office for it that a private Italian transmitter pictures of a lynching murder at two Israeli soldiers did not only film, but also still radiated. Cristiano is an exception, because he, completely on one side and hurrying ahead obediently, measured and to services to be wanted Palestinian interests. Which Insider however still more astonished: The domestic editorship did not take part in the renouncement of pictures of blood intoxication and mobilization force - also RAI radiated the pictures. Cristiano was back beordert.

Rafaelle Ciriello, another Italian television journalist, came into the headlines, because he turned out between the fronts. A ball met it in Ramallah, where the front between Palestinian armed one and Israeli soldier was unclear to past Wednesday. The picture of the dead picture hunter became a Politikum. The Palestinians opened the corpse chamber for all interested TV teams. In Israel the fact was noted that the corpse with crossed arms was aufgebahrt - as anti-Semitic allusion. What however had happened? Had Ciriello of six balls into the chest met or of a hidden explosive device been killed? Put of whom? Shot from whom? Nevertheless - Israelis such as Palestinians did not seek in this case to push for the other side death than accident or deliberate murder into the shoes. Such a thing happened evenly, was called it on both sides.

One must go not so far like the peace researcher Johan Galtung, which deplores a picture of the conflict, reduced to force. It demands diagnosis, prognosis and therapy "beside the almost illustration also" from the correspondents. To show the other side of the pictures - that would be already much.

[Sirotnikov]

Eli, while you make good points, some of your discussion tactics remind me a certain annoying poster.


please oh please be more kind and considerate and don't get as angry.


i know it's easier said than done.

but eventually, there's no chance to create dialogue if you act all warlike.

[Abdul-Aziz]

DATAJACK FRANIT, however the childs are killed there on regular basis. That was just the only time someone taped it all.

Now answeriing to ELI...

POEMS - So Okay, if you want "raw material" go to that site yourself. As I said before, that site is like message boards, anybody can post any poems, that means they are not censored.

DEATHS - Not every death is reported, but the fact is that lots of Palestinian civilians are killed and that is already bad.

GAZA - Only a few people of the dead fought back. Also, remember that Israelis here runsacked a school, which obviously had nothing to do with terrorists. Many of the dead were civilians.

FREEDOM AND BLOWING UP - Well, they tried the peaceful way to get freedom, it led to nothing. The fact is that Israel will NEVER give freedom to Palestine, unless it will be forced. Something like with South Africa under apartheid regime - in fact, the situation is almost the same. If not the huge rise of black numbers in RSA and huge mass protests, sometimes violent, apartheid would still be there. The fact is, people doesn't blows themselves up for no reason. They do so because they sees no reason to live (mostly because Israeli oppression) and because they hopes this will help them. I am almost guaranteed that if I'd live in Palestine, I'd also join Hamas.

CHECKPOINTS, AMBULANCES - So, now you've showed your true opinion (this is by the way also the answer to first questions about why I think you'd support genocide), Palestinians are much less "worthy to live" than Jews... You've just said that stopping a few terror acts (btw, I bet the planners takes into account checkpoints anyway so a few terror acts could be stopped by that) worths the lives and time of MANY Palestinians!

JENIN, TERROR - OK, so now you are even claiming that if Jews kills their enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) it's good, but if Hamas does so, than it is "terrorism" (I also noted on my post about that terror act I talked that more than 50% of casualties would be Jewish officers/soldiers/etc.). How is it so? Or are Jews always right in your opinion?

SETTLERS - All settlers are radicals, otherwise they wouldn't even go there. Also, settling on ITSELF is a bad thing. It would be about the same as if someone sended prisoners, who came out of jail, top your town/city. Of course, not all would commit crime, but many would and that would make life in your town nmot so good. BTW, Israeli nationalises land, owned by Palestinians, for settling purposes, which is even more worse. Not to mention that Palestinians aren't permitted to buy land themselves...

INDEPENDENCE/STOP OF TERRORISM - Yes, probably they wouldn't stop immidietly because of what Israel did for them in past, but the fact is, without destroying homes, killing relatives, etc. much less people would support these organizations and they would completely loose their influence in a long term. Especially it would be so if Israel would help building the new state and rebuilding everything it has destroyed in past. It would also help militarily if government would fight with these organizations.

WAR CRIMES DONE BY ISRAELIS - Collective punishment is banned by international justice systems.

BTW, please read "The Zionist FAQ" in link bellow, it has answers to many questions, including about Arabs not accepting refugees and Arabs sending childs to death (in your sig):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html

To SIROTNIKOV: so for trusting their leaders you can do it in this way - at start, do a democratic elections in Palestine, closely monitored by international agents. After new government will be elected, remove the troops and recognise independence.

[Abdul-Aziz]

Sirotnikov, you're right. I know I am also too aggressive a bit, but I am trying to talk calmly...

[Datajack Franit]

ARRRRR MATEY! KILL ALL THE GAY WHALES!!!

[mrmitchell]

Abdul-Aziz can't be a DL man. Most DLs by now would have posted threads that were so inflammatory the mods would have kept them open for fun, not because it's an actual topic.

Also most DLs wouldn't make the :-) smileys (already know that colon-close parentheisis is the smiley) and wouldn't ask what a DL or settler is.

Abdul, some advise:

Read the FAQ, it helps a lot (IIRC it's where I learned what the settler etc. titles are).

Don't mind the DL dance , it's just another 'Poly tradition like Banana.

(Also please don't mind that I didn't read the thread )

[Winston]

10 bucks say Abdul-Aziz is actually EvC/Emperor Craetsezar/Thorn attempting not to bore himself to death.

I accept Visa, MasterCard and all that.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Also most DLs wouldn't make the :-) smileys (already know that colon-close parentheisis is the smiley) and wouldn't ask what a DL or settler is.

They would and often do.

[Frozzy]

mrmitchell is surely a DL!

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
they are creating a generation of suicide bombers

The Palestinian authority is intent ally indoctrinating people with lies so that they will grow up to be suicide bombers. You can't love your people's children and continually push them to commit suicide. Yasser Arafat has been this same sort of BS for decades now because he feels he can win a propaganda victory if he just keeps training young Palestinians to be terrorists.

I imagine many young Arabs know they are being lied to but anti-Semitism is so ingrained in Arab culture that they choice to believe the lie. I guess that’s what happens when your from one of the most virulently racist and xenophobic societies on earth.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
DATAJACK FRANIT, however the childs are killed there on regular basis. That was just the only time someone taped it all.

Now answeriing to ELI...

POEMS - So Okay, if you want "raw material" go to that site yourself. As I said before, that site is like message boards, anybody can post any poems, that means they are not censored.

DEATHS - Not every death is reported, but the fact is that lots of Palestinian civilians are killed and that is already bad.

GAZA - Only a few people of the dead fought back. Also, remember that Israelis here runsacked a school, which obviously had nothing to do with terrorists. Many of the dead were civilians.

FREEDOM AND BLOWING UP - Well, they tried the peaceful way to get freedom, it led to nothing. The fact is that Israel will NEVER give freedom to Palestine, unless it will be forced. Something like with South Africa under apartheid regime - in fact, the situation is almost the same. If not the huge rise of black numbers in RSA and huge mass protests, sometimes violent, apartheid would still be there. The fact is, people doesn't blows themselves up for no reason. They do so because they sees no reason to live (mostly because Israeli oppression) and because they hopes this will help them. I am almost guaranteed that if I'd live in Palestine, I'd also join Hamas.

CHECKPOINTS, AMBULANCES - So, now you've showed your true opinion (this is by the way also the answer to first questions about why I think you'd support genocide), Palestinians are much less "worthy to live" than Jews... You've just said that stopping a few terror acts (btw, I bet the planners takes into account checkpoints anyway so a few terror acts could be stopped by that) worths the lives and time of MANY Palestinians!

JENIN, TERROR - OK, so now you are even claiming that if Jews kills their enemies (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.) it's good, but if Hamas does so, than it is "terrorism" (I also noted on my post about that terror act I talked that more than 50% of casualties would be Jewish officers/soldiers/etc.). How is it so? Or are Jews always right in your opinion?

SETTLERS - All settlers are radicals, otherwise they wouldn't even go there. Also, settling on ITSELF is a bad thing. It would be about the same as if someone sended prisoners, who came out of jail, top your town/city. Of course, not all would commit crime, but many would and that would make life in your town nmot so good. BTW, Israeli nationalises land, owned by Palestinians, for settling purposes, which is even more worse. Not to mention that Palestinians aren't permitted to buy land themselves...

INDEPENDENCE/STOP OF TERRORISM - Yes, probably they wouldn't stop immidietly because of what Israel did for them in past, but the fact is, without destroying homes, killing relatives, etc. much less people would support these organizations and they would completely loose their influence in a long term. Especially it would be so if Israel would help building the new state and rebuilding everything it has destroyed in past. It would also help militarily if government would fight with these organizations.

WAR CRIMES DONE BY ISRAELIS - Collective punishment is banned by international justice systems.

BTW, please read "The Zionist FAQ" in link bellow, it has answers to many questions, including about Arabs not accepting refugees and Arabs sending childs to death (in your sig):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html

To SIROTNIKOV: so for trusting their leaders you can do it in this way - at start, do a democratic elections in Palestine, closely monitored by international agents. After new government will be elected, remove the troops and recognise independence.

hi ,

say , how many palestinian bombers do we have sitting in jail , .... say how many jewish or israeli bombers are sitting in jail , ......

say , .... why cant you look for facts in stead of nonsense , ......

say , a bomber who blows up a bus , is that not "collective punishment" , .....

say , where are you from ,....... you should come and see ones in a while , ......




bye

[Abdul-Aziz]

First, you didn't even answered the questions, thus I see no reason why you quouted my previous post at all. But I will however answer to your questions.

1.There are many Palestinians in jails, some are bombers, most are not, but the fact that there are few Jewish criminals (settlers, tortuers, etc.) in jails is very bad, since it jst shows racism in Israel. Jewish criminals can walk freely and are even encouraged (settlers and Sharons new law), while Palestinians who done the same and their families suffers.

2.So you spread nonsense and protect genocide. If you'd look at my posts, you'd see that I didn't anywhere said terrorism against civilians is good. However, you try to advocate for Jewish war criminals, who does this genocide. You even put the great war criminal and a man who did genocide in your avatar.

3.About bombers who blows busses. Yes, this is not good and in ideal situation it obviously wouldn't happen. But, we must take into account that Jews has weapons which Palestinians don't. Palestinians must resist and they (almost) can't do so against Jewish soldiers. While Jews at the same time could get real terorists, but they things it is better to kill more people. BTW, destroying homes, etc. just creates new terrorists. When would you be more likely to suicide, when you are rich, have good job, family and big house or when you suddenly lost everything?

4.If you read this thread, you should already know where am I from. My English is not very good, thus I didn't understood sentence "you should come and see ones in a while", could you explain?

;-)

Good luck.

[Arrian]

If he is a DL, he at least went through the effort of posting in some of the CivIII forums first (short posts, it's true, but posts nonetheless).

Dunno, but if he's a DL, he gets an "A" for effort.

Really, really, really good English for someone from Azerbajan (I apologise for the mangled spelling on that) though.

-Arrian

[Traianvs]

I've known this board for some time now (check my registration date!), and I don't know what a bloody DL is... can't you just say what it is?