Some poems about life in an occupied country...

[Datajack Franit]

This thread: Arab world vs Israel

I can't wait to throw in homosexuality, abort and alcoholism!

[Dinner]

Now my good Italian friend you must admite it was all started by a bored American teen who thought he would be oh so sly and create a Saudi turned Central Asian DL.

[Datajack Franit]

He speaks a pretty good english, being a Krzgy-whatever-guy

I guess you're right Oerdin, but should we all try out posting some massive porn pics and see his reaction?

[Abdul-Aziz]

And you would like such genocide, wouldn't you? BTW, about poems, I still don't understand you...

As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC. Remember that one where father with child were killed? Each day about 3-5 Palestinians dies in unclear circumstances, like going in streets, etc. In that Gaza siege not long ago, many innocents also died.

Oh, so you are speaking about Jewish refugees? Well, if so than I have to say that if not these refugees there wouldn't be Israel at all. Israel itself was created as refuge for those people. While other Arab states have their own culture and traditions, etc. BTW, and the main thing, why should Palestinians go elsewhere if they had homes and territory in they home until Jews came? Why they should go to other Arab states and give their lands to Jews? Jews already kicked them out of certain lands to West Bank and Gaza, now they annexed them also. Who guarantees that they won't annex new lands Palestinians would go to also? They can't retreat anymore, they already retreated to make place for Jews. Now Jews has their state, thus allow Palestinians to have it also.

Those terrorism threats is very, very unclear issue. I doubt there are so many of them for instance, and if there are, moast of them couldn't be completed anyway. The only way for Israelis to get permanent solution to this problem is to give independence to Palestine.

As for checkpoints, as official statistics shows, over 80 Palestinians died because of ambulances stops at these checkpoints, not to mention that they disallows people to get to work on time, etc.

As for Jenin, yet again your show how bigot you are by saying how your army should blow up everything around. As for your statistics, btw, I have to say that if 25 Palestinians would blow up themselves in different places of Tel Aviv anf kill 52 Jews (many of who would be civilians, others army, police, Mossad, etc.) you would call it a horrible terror act, not "saving enemy lives".

No, but settlers truly attacks Palestinian villages. It is proven. BTW, settling annexed territories is illegal (UN).

As for Israelis destroying Palestinain homes, well do I seriously need to prove it? Turn on TV, BTW, even Israel itself agrees that they are doing this as collective punishment. I am not sure, probably media in Israel is censored or something like that, cause how could you don't know this otherwise?

To others:
I am not Kirgyz, I am Azeri. Azerbaijan is in Caucassus, not Central Asia by the way. From Baku to Bishkek (Kirgyz capital) the distance is like from Denver to New York or from Madrid to Warshaw.

[Eli]

I must get some sleep, so it's all very brief.

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
And you would like such genocide, wouldn't you?

On what do you base this statement?

BTW, about poems, I still don't understand you...

You presented a carefully selected groups of poems, so there is no surprise all of them are peaceful. What I was interested in is the "raw material".

As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC.

Man bites dog. BBC wont show you good treatment because it's not interesting.

Remember that one where father with child were killed?

No.

Each day about 3-5 Palestinians dies in unclear circumstances, like going in streets, etc.

The numbers dont add up. 3-5 dead Pals per day means more than 4000 dead in total. The correct figure is twice as small.

In that Gaza siege not long ago, many innocents also died.

Being around armed gunmen firing on Israeli forces is not healthy. One would think that after 2.5 years the Pals would've figured that out.

Oh, so you are speaking about Jewish refugees? Well, if so than I have to say that if not these refugees there wouldn't be Israel at all. Israel itself was created as refuge for those people.

Correct but irrelevant. Israel still had to invest enourmous efforts to integrate them.

While other Arab states have their own culture and traditions, etc.

There was a huge difference in cultures when refugees poured to Israel. The two major Jewish "centers" in Europe and the Arab World were ceparated for centuries.

BTW, and the main thing, why should Palestinians go elsewhere if they had homes and territory in they home until Jews came? Why they should go to other Arab states and give their lands to Jews?

Ok, let's assume you're right. The evil Jews kicked them out and wont let them back in. So you let them rot in refugee camps for 5 decades, or help them with all the means you have? The Arab world chose the former.

Jews already kicked them out of certain lands to West Bank and Gaza, now they annexed them also.

False.

Who guarantees that they won't annex new lands Palestinians would go to also?

Past experience. Israel can annex the territories tommorow and kick out the Pals. It could since 1956, when our military power began to grow beyonf the combined power of the Arab states. Yet we dont do it. Why? Because we believe it will be immoral. Here's your guarantee.

They can't retreat anymore, they already retreated to make place for Jews. Now Jews has their state, thus allow Palestinians to have it also.

I agree. But indisrcimenently blowing up civilians is not going to convice Israel.

Those terrorism threats is very, very unclear issue.

When a Pal informant inside the Hamas reports that they have a car bomb en route to Natania, it's very clear.

I doubt there are so many of them for instance,

It's a fact.

and if there are, moast of them couldn't be completed anyway.

Thanks to the IDF.

The only way for Israelis to get permanent solution to this problem is to give independence to Palestine.

Why dont you ask the Hamas/IJ/PFLP/DFLP/Hezbolla/Al Quaeda if this is what makes them stop? I have the feeling they will dissagree.

As for checkpoints, as official statistics shows, over 80 Palestinians died because of ambulances stops at these checkpoints, not to mention that they disallows people to get to work on time, etc.

Unfortunate, but if this is what it takes to stop that car bomb to Netanya...

As for Jenin, yet again your show how bigot you are by saying how your army should blow up everything around.

I never said that.
I said that we could but we havent. The logical conclusion is that we dont want to harm civilians, when possible.

As for your statistics, btw, I have to say that if 25 Palestinians would blow up themselves in different places of Tel Aviv anf kill 52 Jews (many of who would be civilians, others army, police, Mossad, etc.)

Then they will blow up in Tel Aviv with the intention to kill as many as possible, not to find explosives labs and confiscate weapons. That's where the difference lies.

Our goal is to harm terrorists and prevent terror. Civilians get killed because the terrorists are among them but we do all we can to avoid that.

The Pals goal is to kill as many as possible, and they do everything to accomplish it.

you would call it a horrible terror act, not "saving enemy lives".

Because of the goal of the attack will be to kill as many as possible.

No, but settlers truly attacks Palestinian villages. It is proven.

I know. But it doesnt mean a thing about the settlers population as a whole.

BTW, settling annexed territories is illegal (UN).

Blowing up in buses is also illegal, I dont see you complaining.

As for Israelis destroying Palestinain homes, well do I seriously need to prove it? Turn on TV, BTW, even Israel itself agrees that they are doing this as collective punishment. I am not sure, probably media in Israel is censored or something like that, cause how could you don't know this otherwise?

Yet again, you should reread what I wrote.
I didnt ask you to prove that we destroy homes, but to prove that it's a war crime.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz

As for civilians dying, no. There were many pictures and videos showing how Israeli treats Palestinian innocents, most are by recognised international services like BBC. Remember that one where father with child were killed?

Was this the shooting that took place between a gunbattle between the Israeli army and Palestinian radicals, where an investigation by a german news agency concluded that the boy was killed by the Palestinian gunmen?

[Sirotnikov]

You're outnumbered by a group of very nice Isrealis, but there are plenty of people here who support Palestine's right to self-determination.

Excuse me?

Where is the contrast here?

I support Palestine's right to self-determination as much as the next guy.

I just want to make sure I can trust their leaders before that.

[Dinner]

I believe it was Edan but most of the anti-semites don't let that stop them from continuing to spread the lie.

[orange]

Welcome Abdul-Aziz

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by orange
Welcome Abdul-Aziz

We welcome DL's now? I thought that we were suppossed to mercilessly taunt them.

[Datajack Franit]

What's that thing with the killed child? Is it true?

[Edan]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
What's that thing with the killed child? Is it true?

German TV station: Mohammed A-Dura killed by Palestinians

[Sirotnikov]

there's nothing absolute aobut that.

the fact remains that the kid was killed during a massive exchange of fire between 1 israeli position, and some 4 palestinian positions.

the german tv show casts serious doubt on the popular version saying that israeli soldiers are likely to have been responsible for the boy's death.

Although it happened almost a year and a half ago, who can forget twelve-year-old Muhammad al-Dura dying in his father's arms at Netzarim Crossing in the Gaza Strip, a victim of routine and intentional Israeli brutality. At least that's how French television depicted it in a video clip replayed countless times the world over. The image quickly attained iconic status, and Muhammad became the poster child for the second Palestinian intifada. (In its own narration of the clip, the Palestinian Authority spoke of the "beauty of the martyr," whose blood flows "like a waterfall.") But now a March 17 documentary aired by Germany's ARD television suggests something extraordinary: that Muhammad was killed not by Israeli soldiers, but by Palestinian gunmen, perhaps deliberately to create precisely such a photogenic martyr. The French footage, it turns out, was heavily edited--from six minutes to 50 seconds--and the French won't let anyone see the tape they didn't air. What's more, the Palestinian Authority didn't allow an autopsy on the boy and never released the bullet that killed him for outside scrutiny. ARD has done its own forensic investigation, however, and concluded that the shot that entered Muhammad's crouching body could not have come from the location where Israeli soldiers were positioned. ARD's report has been covered extensively in the German press (Die Welt headlined its article, "RICOCHETING TRUTH"). As of this writing, however, no major American newspaper or TV network--including the many that ran the original footage of Muhammad's death--has mentioned it.

[Sirotnikov]

(google translation of article on die-welt)

The truth as transverse racquets

A film examines the death of the twelve-year-old boy Muhammad al-Dura - with surprising results
Of Igal Avidan

At the beginning of the al-Aksa-Intifada in September 2000 Muhammads last picture went through the world: The boy, who died before current camera, in the arm of the father. Still on the same day thousands of Palestinians celebrated the boy as "martyrs for Jerusalem". neither Mohammad nor its father Jamal would have seen it to the asseverations of the Israeli soldiers and hardly believed therefore also not shot, someone. Mohammad was the only Palestinian victim, that got a face even in the Israeli media - newspapers sent reporters to the wounded father and criticized the Israeli commission of inquiry.

Esther Shapira, authoress of the hessian broadcast, had its doubts: "because I know Israeli soldiers well, fell it me very heavily to present to me that they shoot deliberately and cold-bloodedly a child." It wanted the question "who shot Muhammad al-Dura " to answer and the background of the most famous Intifada picture to analyze. A mission with open exit. It would have turned its film (pool of broadcasting corporations, Monday, 18.3rd, 21,45 o'clock) also if its search had disproved their own conception.

Two days after the outbreak of the Palestinian rebellion in the west bank come to father and son into the Nezarim crossing, at which for hours Palestinian and Israeli snipers a fire fight supply themselves. In the protection of a jeep all unarmed Palestinians flee: Only the al-Dura s remains hidden behind a waste water pipe. the bloody drama, the Palestinian France2-Kameramann Talal takes 45 minutes abu Rachma notes it. Six minutes filmmaterial it overacts in the Jerusalemer studio, but korrespondent Charles Enderlein wants to have received only 50 seconds of it and send. The original material remains under catch. Enderlein threatens in the film to sue everyone which accuses manipulation to him.

The whole truth cannot show also Shapira. Because Israel tore all buildings off after one week around the crossing. The Palestinians left neither too nor examined them the fragments in Jamals body or the holes at the wall behind the death place to a Autopsie. Shapira shows the results of an investigation of the Israeli army, which results in that the deadly shots could not come from their own rifle.

More importantly than Shapiras minutioese reconstruction of the tragedy is however their exposing the propaganda machinery, which operates Arafats authority with the dead child. The palaestinsische television turned a video tie-clip on behalf of the education Ministry, in which any Israeli sniper is explained as a murderer al-Dura s. Director Moneer al Rayyes explains: "it concerns an artistic representation in the context of the truth identification." In the off of the video tie-clip a moderator of the beauty of the martyr schwaermt, from whose body the blood out-squirts "like a wasserfall". ", asks al-Dura in this film follows me ", and the spectator asks itself, how many Palestinian children were driven by these propaganda pictures into death.

The Israeli army tried to prevent Shapiras film so that the tragic pictures of the dying boy would not flicker again in the living rooms. According to army speaker Olivier Rabinovitch would not have their in relation to explanations this pictures a chance. "he said to me that the German viewers mean film from the front in here for a reason would reject: Shapira is nevertheless a Jewish name."

[Sirotnikov]

(another die-welt article about the issue)

"do not be afraid you of death - Maertyrertum is sweet"

Instigated, sacrificed and in death to martyrs representative - who number of the children killed in the Middle East conflict rises

Of Miriam Hollstein and Michael Anthony

The small is ten years old only and wants to become, what its father is: a martyr. 15,000 humans urge itself in the center of Nablus, in order to carry Nurs father Saleh Darwazeh to grave. The Hamas leader had died on Tuesday with a purposeful Israeli missile attack. "father, I takes no parting from you, because I am proud on you and believe firmly in it, you soon to see again", says the Palestinian boy into a microphone. Later it someone presses a rifle into the hand. Trauern on Palestinian.

137 Palestinian children and young person died - according to data of Palestinian organizations - since outbreak of the new Intifada in September 2000. Most died when stone throwing goaded on against the Israeli army, from hate propaganda and the feeling of suppression for many years. They died a double death: the actual as well as propaganda death - as icon of instigated quantities and in medial spread martyr pictures.

"today that obtains the strategically largest advantage", said the Israeli minister of foreign affairs Schimon Peres, "with dramatic pictures the most powerful shock waves and the most violent indignation to obtain can." Peres said this after the death of the 12-jaehrigen Mohammed Jammal al-Dura in past September. The pictures of a French television team, which showed, how boy with its father turned out for the Palestinian in a fire fight between extremists and Israeli soldiers and thereby was shot, released world-wide embarrassment. Today Gaza is paved with posters of Mohammed.

"children are systematically used by the Palestinian propaganda machine", confirmed also Itamar Markus, director of the Israeli "Palestinian Media Watch of institutes". Markus drives each morning into its office fully plugged with video tape recordings to Jersualem, in order to note Palestinian television broadcasts. Since beginning of the Intifada the video recorders run continuously. One of the most frequent motives: the 12-jaehrige Mohammed from Netzarim. Without TV commercials Mohammeds contemporary call to add much to it, it it. "in the paradies", quaeckt a kitschige child's voice from the off follows me. The picture of Mohammed is faded in, the camera moves into a red evening sky.

Five to sieved such tie-clips run daily. In another a Palestinian singer sings: "the time for toys is past." The camera points to it black-and-white pictures of children, who let dolls and spielzeugautos fall, to stones seize and on Israeli army posts approach. Then the pictures become again multicolored, and the singer whispers encouraging: "do not be afraid you of death, Maertyrertum is sweet."

"with children emotions can Markus be schueren best", white. In the meantime also the Fanatiker on the opposite side understood that. After the murder at that ten months old settler baby Shalhevet passport in Hebron by Palestinian snipers retarded parents the funeral and required of the Israeli army the occupation of the Palestinian quarter of Hebron. In the by the majority per-Palestinian adjusted France settler sympathizers in the Jewish quarter of of Paris photos of Shalhevet hung up. Under the title "shocking pictures of the Arab hate" show InterNet sides of pictures of the blood-flooded baby and call with slogans like "Shalhevets blood cry out to Scharon" for harder procedure against the Palestinians.

But again and again extract themselves member of victims courageously from the cycle of the force. One of the most prominent examples is the orthodoxe Jew Yitzhak Frankenthal. When 1994 his 19-jaehriger Sohn Arik were murdered with the Trampen of three Hamas Aktivisten, the businessman created the "Parents ' Circle", a group mourning that parents, to the Frankenthal concerning both sides invited. Today 190 Israeli and 140 Palestinian relatives of victims belong to the group. Even if it became more difficult, the circle meets regularly. With its fellow combatants Frankenthal goes into schools, speaks of his son and against the hate. Shortly its organization - supports from European and American funds - wants to start a large campaign in the Israeli and Palestinian media. The picture of Shalhevet is to stand beside that the small Diya. The three months old Palestinian baby at the end of of July had been killed by Jewish extremists. "we make no one-sided debt assignments, but try, to educate both societies to the peace", say Frankenthal. All would have to understand, so Frankenthal that the peace had its price: political concessions on both sides.

He speaks with the authority of that, which already paid the highest price. "the question is not whether it will give peace", says Frankenthal, "the question is: like many of our children must still die up to then?"