You be the judge: Fair sentence for Spies

[Dinner]

Ordinary theft? How about ordinary theft that just happens to put thousands of lives at risk.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Yes, we all know treason is only acceptable if done whilst waving the Stars 'n' Bars...

That would presume that there was any legal obligation to that entity known as the United States of America after states asserted their sovereign rights to secede from that entity. Now your Copperhead types, you can have all those you want, but we weren't traitors. And we weren't the ones that led the Federal government to violate it's trust with the states under the Constitution.

As for this idiot's sentence, I'm not sure what Saddam Hussein's mailing address or email address would be, but absent more compelling evidence of actual contact with foreign agents or transfer of information, it would seem to me that the proper offenses were attempted espionage and gathering of classified national defense information.

Basic points are:

(1) No American citizen or agent was harmed;

(2) The US was not in a state of armed conflict with any of the parties to which sensitive information was allegedly offered.

(3) There was no apparent actual contact with a foreign agent;

(4) There was no apparent exchance of information or cash.


15 years or so would be appropriate. If either of the first two conditions was met, I'd say death was appropriate, if neither of the first two, but either of the second two, then life without parole. None of these four conditions occured from what I've read.

GePap:

Treason can occur absent war, since the definition of an "enemy of the United States" is broader than just being a belligerent party against the US in actual armed conflict. The tough nut to crack is that the Constitution requires an overt act of support or assistance with at least two witnesses, so that's why the charge is so rarely brought.

[David Floyd]

Ordinary theft? How about ordinary theft that just happens to put thousands of lives at risk.

No, the US government is putting thousands of lives at risk by immorally stationing troops around the world in order to threaten other nations. It isn't wrong for a person to help another nation defend themselves against those troops. Stealing, though, is wrong, so you can punish theft, but I don't agree with punishing the transfer of information, especially information that will help stop aggression.

MtG,

I would argue that the phrase "enemy of the US" implies the meaning of "enemy of the average American", because the individual is very paramount in the United States.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The concept of an "average American" doesn't exist in the Constitution.

The definition of "the United States," is expressed clearly, though, and one of the primary rules of construction of legal language is to not use the same term to mean different things.

Also, many states themselves historically had treason statutes for treason against the state government. (cf Dorr's rebellion)

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
The penalty for treason is death.
Spying is treason.

Yup. And if it were up to me, it'd be by some horrible, mongoose infested way.

[Ramo]

I don't consider treason a legitimate crime (i.e. an action that warrants legal prosecution). Acting against a state is never inherently immoral. If he's to be proseucted, he should be prosecuted under other statutes, for instance aiding mass-murderers. Just as quite a few of our country's leaders should be.

That said, I think he should get no more than 10 years.

[David Floyd]

The concept of an "average American" doesn't exist in the Constitution.

The definition of "the United States," is expressed clearly, though, and one of the primary rules of construction of legal language is to not use the same term to mean different things.

The United States were created, and exist, to protect individual rights. Therefore, the individual is paramount when the phrase "the United States" is used. The individual is implied in both the phrase itself AND the definition.