The Sunflower Dilemma - Could you forgive?

[Arrian]

Tough question.

My initial response is: who the hell am I to judge Wiesenthal?

I cannot possibly put myself in his shoes. I could try to, but there is no way I can imagine what being in a death camp would have done to me. I figure so long as Wiesenthal didn't curse the guy on his deathbed he did well.

As for telling his mother... I have a real hard time lying to people. I'm not sure whether or not it would be "right" but I would probably have told her the truth.

-Arrian

[SlowwHand]

Bzzzzzzzzz. WRONG!
I just went back and reread what you posted.
A personal level is what you indicated.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Bzzzzzzzzz. WRONG!
I just went back and reread what you posted.
A personal level is what you indicated.

Okay, you can stop doing this in my thread, since it is about a rather serious topic. But here is what I said:

After recounting this story--and going on for a bit about his home life as a child, growing up a good Catholic in Stuttgart before joining the Hitler youth as a kid--Karl begs Weisenthal to forgive him for the crime. He expresses remorse for having been involved and wants Weisenthal to help him "die at peace."

That does not say that the soldier was asking for personal forgiveness from Weisenthal, merely that he asked for forgiveness. Since what the soldier had done was not personally against Weisenthal, and since Weisenthal was just a random Jew selected (I'd wager Karl told the nurse to "bring me a Jew from the courtyard), it makes NO sense for him to be asking for personal forgiveness. It is pretty obvious he views Weisenthal as a representative of the Jews who can grant him forgiveness on behalf of the Jews.

[Velociryx]

d'oh! Just read the latest replies and realized I didn't answer the other half.

I'd not take any perverse joy in it, but I would tell his mother exactly what kind of man her "good boy" grew up to be.

And I would include his last minute plea for forgiveness, and my own reaction to it.

-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
This is amusing.
I'm the one so much for the death penalty.
The guy that gets called a redneck cracker (not by you, Boris ).
Yet so far, I'm easily the most compassionate.

Who'd a thunk it?
And I gave the thread 5 stars, besides.

Awww . . . does the wittle Texan want a cookie?


Anyway, I really cannot decide on a whim just after reading your post, Boris, on what I would do. Let me think about this some more.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Yet so far, I'm easily the most compassionate.

I disagree. I don't believe you are the most compassionate. Your compassion is for a monster who committed a crime against humanity, not for the humanity which this monster helped destroy.

I would have told the man, "I will not forgive you, and God will not forgive you either." I would also have told his mother what her son had done. When it comes to the Holocaust, "Never forgive. Never forget."

[Boris Godunov]

I'd rather this not be a debate over the merits each other's answers, Che. Just give your own.

Later I will try to post the entire recount of Karl's narrative. Weisenthal does not call him a monster, che, and when you read the details of the massacre, it's not so cut-and-dried.

I will say that I think telling a poor widow, a woman who has hurt no one and lost everything, who has nothing left her save the image of her son as a good boy, the truth would be a dispicable act of cruelty to someone who does not deserve such a thing. There are cases where honesty is not the best policy.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I, personally, would have forgiven him.

[MichaeltheGreat]

(a) It does no harm to forgive - the man's paying the price, you know it, he knows it. He's dying at age 22, cut short like the lives he participated in taking.

(b) No need to tell the truth to the mom - she's a widow, lost her only? kid, and doesn't have much of anything other than a memory. The specific crime, and many others, are widely known, so shattering her memory of her son and leaving her with nothing isn't necessary.

Chegitz - the victims (in this scenario) don't enter into it. Nothing can be done for them, it's just a dying kid who's an SS trooper, and his widowed mom later.

The kid dies either way, shot or blasted to hell and in pain, but with at least some regret for what he did. The mother had nothing to do with it, so what great service to the victims is done by shattering what memories she has - since they're all she has?

Is creating more anguish the way to show compassion for the victims?

[SnowFire]

Then it will never stop, che. Forgiving minor crimes is easy. Forgiving big crimes is hard. And yet, it is precisely for the big crimes that forgiveness- even if it is not asked for- is perhaps most needed. Heck, I've seen your posts on the Israel-Palestine issues. As long as both sides swear to never forget and never forgive the monstrous crimes of the past, only more crimes will be committed.

I'll agree that Mr. Wiesenthal can't "forgive" him in the sense of a crime being committed against him, but he certainly could remind him that if he is truly sorry, God will forgive him, and that's what's important.

Edit: Sorry, hadn't seen Boris's post when I made mine.

[Bereta_Eder]

Just read a couple of lines from Boris' text (summary would be nice to those who don't have the time/will) but

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Is creating more anguish the way to show compassion for the victims?

Not getting the truth out is both an insult to the inoccent victims as well as hindering the efforts for such Nazi attrocities as this never to happen again IMO.

[Imran Siddiqui]

As long as both sides swear to never forget and never forgive the monstrous crimes of the past, only more crimes will be committed.

Well said.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I disagree. I don't believe you are the most compassionate. Your compassion is for a monster who committed a crime against humanity, not for the humanity which this monster helped destroy.

I would have told the man, "I will not forgive you, and God will not forgive you either." I would also have told his mother what her son had done. When it comes to the Holocaust, "Never forgive. Never forget."

You commies are arrogant bastards, aren't you ?
We Methodists would never to presume what God will or won't forgive.

[MichaeltheGreat]

The truth is out. It is simply a question, out of millions who do know, if the widowed mother who lost her only son and has nothing but memories, needs to know the specific detail of her own son's involvement.

She knows of atrocities being committed, the entire world knows. It's not like her son is at large, and claiming innocence. He's dead.

Getting the truth "out" isn't the question.

[chequita guevara]

As long as the crimes are ignored and buried under the sand, they will continue to be repeated. But what else should I expect from a nation of people that refuses to hear about its own crimes against humanity.