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**DinoDoc** · February 17, 2003, 11:31

Originally posted by dannubis
name me one american victory that actually made some serious long lasting changes in benefit for the local populace ...

The US-Mexican War, the Civil War, and Korean War are the first that come to mind.

**EDWINADOLLY** · February 17, 2003, 11:39

Hmmm,but they didn't do so well with Vietnam though did they?,they just make themselves look like schoolbullies to the rest of the world.And let's face it,the American election was a farce,and most American people don't back Bush anyway

Originally posted by DinoDoc

The US-Mexican War, the Civil War, and Korean War are the first that come to mind.

**DinoDoc** · February 17, 2003, 11:41

Who's DL are you?

**Dry** · February 17, 2003, 11:51

Re: Re: A complete military history of France.

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Did you know that Friday the 13th is considered unlucky only because it is the date of the St Bartholomew's Day Massacre? Hence it is only unlucky to protestants.

Could you specify which calendar you are using?
By mine it happened the 24 august 1572.

**dannubis** · February 17, 2003, 11:52

Korean war ? A lot of dead people but to what avail ?

The civil war was a domestic issue of your country .. you got the better of it, i don't doubt...

After the US mexican war you took a piece of land for your own, but i doubt the indians who lived on that land shared your opinion 4 decades later ...

**DinoDoc** · February 17, 2003, 11:54

Originally posted by dannubis
Korean war ? A lot of dead people but to what avail ?

South Korea still exists.

After the US mexican war you took a piece of land for your own,

Which made a positive and long lasting contribution to the local population (us) that is still being felt to this day.

**GePap** · February 17, 2003, 12:18

To Europeans, about the US today:

While I myself don't buy this way of thinking, as far as I can tell, America today are acting so hysterically because they are hysterical.

The US does not have an intimate relation with the Horrors of war as so much of the rest of the world does. The only war in which Americans have seen widespread devastation brought upon their own homes and land was self-enflicted and over 140 years ago. France lost more men in WW1 than the US lost in WW1,WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Spanish American War, War of Independence, War of 1812, Mexican American war, and every other single armed eno****er the US has particiapted in, outside of the Civil War. And the US is such a bigger state to beign with. So then comes 9/11, and this bubble of invencibility, which so many posters try to radiate so strongly, all of a sudden goes *puff*. 3000 American civilains dead, and all the tanks, planes, missiles, technology, that the US prides itself on, worthless to stop it. So now, America, given a small taste of the horrors of mass destruction, has gone into overdrive to make itself safe again. Anything they are told will make them feel just a simdgeon better and safer, they will approve off, whether it actually does or not. If Americans then spew vitrol at anyone that does not go along with them, its because they feel that dam it, we help others, now everyone should come and help us be safe.

Hopefully the hysteria will die down before too much happens: but the next time somebody goes hyperjingo, give them a hug: they need it.

**Drake Tungsten** · February 17, 2003, 12:26

You know, GePap, some of us (including the Bush administration) considered Saddam to be a threat before 9/11 ever happened. The current situation really has little to do with "hysteria".

If anything, it's you lefties who are getting hysterical now that the war is almost here. Ya'll act like the removal of Saddam Hussein will bring on the Apocalypse...

**GePap** · February 17, 2003, 12:31

That is not the sentiment of that "majority" of the American people who now support war.

As for your evaluation of Iraq: i have discussed that elsewhere: now now Drake, no going of on tangents, we know how much you hate that.

And for what I think it will lead to, short term and long term, that also lies elsewhere.

NOW STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!

**Dr Strangelove** · February 17, 2003, 12:33

Originally posted by dannubis
besides from the second world war, in which a lot of nations fought, name me one american victory that actually made some serious long lasting changes in benefit for the local populace ...

Which local populace? How many mutli-national conflicts have there been since the birth of the USA? I count the Napoleonic Wars, WW1, WW2, the Korean conflict, and the Gulf War. The US participated marginally in the Napoleonic Wars. The result of its participation in that series of wars was a better understanding between the US and Britain, a desirable outcome. The US participated in WW1. Some consider US involvement in this war to have been critical to the allied victory. Certainly US troops helped stabilize allied lines during Germany's last offensive in 1918, and supplies from the US kept the allies from suffering the unrest that was the coup de grace for Germany.

Personally I'd love to visit France some day if they promise not to poop on me.

**GePap** · February 17, 2003, 12:39

How important was the US military involvement (as apart from the economic and political) in WW1 really?

The German Spring offensive was broken by the Second Marne, and that battle was fought by the French and British with, at best, minimal US support. As far as I know, American forces did not begin arriving in quantity by may and june 1918. Also, Germany faced far greater economic pressures than either the Uk or France. After the 1917 mutinies, the French seemed more compossed,and in the west they did not face the creeping starvation one saw in Germany or the Habsburg empire.

**Dr Strangelove** · February 17, 2003, 13:01

Re: Re: Re: A complete military history of France.

Originally posted by Dry

Could you specify which calendar you are using?
By mine it happened the 24 august 1572.

Well whaddayaknow? Fridayy the 13th of October, 1307 was the date that the King of France ordered the Knights Templar put to the sword. Since the Pope declared them to be heretics, and since (some) believe them to be the forerunners of the freemasons tha prtyy much makes them sort of an early form of protestant. Well, I knew it had something to do with some type of persecution enjoyed by French Catholics

**Spiffor** · February 17, 2003, 13:22

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Personally I'd love to visit France some day if they promise not to poop on me.

Don't hesitate

If you say "Bonjour... Pouvez vous m'aider" (Hello, could you help me ?) to a Frenchman, he'll immediately love you, even if you continue the discussion in English

**Spiffor** · February 17, 2003, 13:27

GePap :
There were approx 6 millions French / British soldiers on the trenches, and the US brought about 1 million troops total. While its effect would have not been very significant if the army was evenly spread, the concentration of troops helped making a difference.
I don't think the US "saved" France in WWI (even though it definitely helped), but it accelerated the German defeat dearly. The war might have ended with a draw without the US.

**DuncanK** · February 17, 2003, 13:31

I think the US involvement in WWI had a psychological effect on the Germans. They were worn down and they gave up hope.

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