Adam Smith vs. Carl Marx

[David Floyd]

UR,

Fine, but the point is only this: john tried to say that communist systems work better in wartime, and I was just pointing out that, historically, that's not a correct statement. Now, you might say it's an unfair comparison, but that isn't the question here - the question was whether or not communist countries outperform capitalist ones in wartime.

[orange]

I think Smith's ideal nation and Marx's ideal nation would both suck ass and have identical problems.

[DuncanK]

I was assuming that the two countries were equal and that all other conditions were equal.

[David Floyd]

I was assuming that the two countries were equal and that all other conditions were equal.

Then I still don't think that's necessarily true. Remember the Ukrainians and the Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians, who were oppressed by communism, at first siding with Hitler against Stalin. Hardly a sign of a superior system in wartime (or any other time), no?

[DuncanK]

What the hell does oppression have to do with it? War is oppressive.

[David Floyd]

The point is, that if your own people are revolting to the other side (before they realize the other side is equally bad), then the system is broken.

[DuncanK]

DF,

You're adding stuff into it. Anyone can assume there will be revolts on the side of the ideology they don't like.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Then I still don't think that's necessarily true. Remember the Ukrainians and the Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians, who were oppressed by communism, at first siding with Hitler against Stalin. Hardly a sign of a superior system in wartime (or any other time), no?

David,

Communism is primarily an economic system, so is Capitalism. Political factors just detract from the discussion.

[DuncanK]

DF,

If your people ever run our country in another war we will get slaughtered.

[David Floyd]

UR,

Communism is primarily an economic system, so is Capitalism. Political factors just detract from the discussion.

Then explain to me why communist nations tend to be the most oppressive?

Duncan,

If your people ever run our country in another war we will get slaughtered.

Wrong. If Libertarians ran the country, we would never fight. Not even WW2.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Wrong. If Libertarians ran the country, we would never fight. Not even WW2.

I don't know any libertarians who believe in zero military expenditures. If they believe in military expenditures they must believe that there is always possibility of war. So if there was a war and the libertarians were in power we would get slaughtered.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Then explain to me why communist nations tend to be the most oppressive?

It's a reaction against Imperialistic interventions.

[David Floyd]

It's a reaction against Imperialistic interventions.

OK, then. What did starving millions of Ukrainians to death have to do with "foreign intervention"? I don't recall the Soviet Union being invaded in the 1930s.

And I suppose you're gonna blame the Cultural Revolution on the West somehow, too, right?

Duncan,

If they believe in military expenditures they must believe that there is always possibility of war. So if there was a war and the libertarians were in power we would get slaughtered.

The odds of a Libertarian getting into a war are so slight as to be statistically insignificant.

[SnowFire]

Oh crud, we have DF defending Adam Smith. Lovely.

I'll just say that in retrospect, the vast majority of the groundwork that Smith set still seems reasonable- incomplete in parts, and perhaps a bit naive in others, but solid. Marx has multiple flagrantly false ideas at work that have been virtually disproven by all but the diehard, however.

Then again, I've read more of Marx's politics than his actual economic treatises, so perhaps I'm off base, but oh well.

[DuncanK]

SnowFire,

Only the libertarians would follow his theories in war time. Are you suggesting the limited government intervention in war suggested by Smith would be better than full government control?