Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


I've been clear to say that all private ownership in not exploitation. But when you hire someone to use your equipment to produce profit, that is exploitaion.

So the Mom and Pop restaurant down the street who hires a waitress to serve the customers is being exploitive?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned


The SU had travel restrictions inside the country and it was a long way from the West. The border between East and West was barbed wire, mine fields, dogs and back-shooting guards. And don't tell me that the workers were not trying to flee.

As to force - could someone own his own farm in the SU? I really don't know the answer to this question. But it was my understanding that millions were killed when they were forced to give up their own farms.

Ned,


Why do workers flee Mexico, or some other capitalist country where workers flee.

[Az]

The SU had travel restrictions inside the country and it was a long way from the West. The border between East and West was barbed wire, mine fields, dogs and back-shooting guards. And don't tell me that the workers were not trying to flee.

erm, my father had multiple opportunities to flee the country. He didn't do so. He was a sailor, and with time, a captain at the merchant marine. Many did try to go, but they tried to move to the rich capitalist countries, not the poor ones. It is not diffent from people running away from poorer capitalist countries.

As to force - could someone own his own farm in the SU? I really don't know the answer to this question. But it was my understanding that millions were killed when they were forced to give up their own farms.

That was Stalin. Stalin was an *******. But you cannot use him, or Mao, that didn't even read socialist literature, as a reason for why communism is wrong, and cannot work.

[Ned]

Originally posted by DuncanK
Ned,

Why do workers flee Mexico, or some other capitalist country where workers flee.

My point is exactly this. Planned systems are not as efficient as free market systems and will fall behind free market systems in production of wealth. Workers will want to move to wealthier nations. Thus the barbed wire.

I don't know if Mexico can be described as a capitalist system. From my understanding, it is more like a oligarchy where an elite control everything and prevent real competition.

[Iron Chancellor]

Well, if I remember correctly, following the destalinalization, farmers could have private gardens, and these gardens, making up 2% of the land, produced 25% of agricultural products. Says something, no?

"Why do workers flee Mexico...?"
Because the US is richer and has more jobs to offer at better prices than those offered in Mexico. Say what you will about man's desire for fairness at all costs, but tell me, which country had more immigrants throughout the Cold War, the US or USSR?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor

"Why do workers flee Mexico...?"
Because the US is richer and has more jobs to offer at better prices than those offered in Mexico. Say what you will about man's desire for fairness at all costs, but tell me, which country had more immigrants throughout the Cold War, the US or USSR?

You missed the point. The US had a higher standard of living.

BTW, some of you seem to think that what I'm saying is that Communism will raise the standard of living significantly. No, I'm just saying that the standard of living will go up a little bit and that the distribution will be more equal.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned

I don't know if Mexico can be described as a capitalist system. From my understanding, it is more like a oligarchy where an elite control everything and prevent real competition.

You just described capitalism as it exists in every country.

[Az]

I don't know if Mexico can be described as a capitalist system. From my understanding, it is more like a oligarchy where an elite control everything and prevent real competition.

So how come american bussinesses set up shops there all the time? In a way, it is even more capitalist than the US. It is certainly more deregulated in terms of labor laws.

[Ned]

Originally posted by DuncanK


You missed the point. The US had a higher standard of living.

BTW, some of you seem to think that what I'm saying is that Communism will raise the standard of living significantly. No, I'm just saying that the standard of living will go up a little bit and that the distribution will be more equal.

I don't know about the average standard of living going up, but I agree on the equality part.

But you do see the problem, though. Workers flee - to wealthier, free market nations where they can have a better life. Even the poor are better off in free market nations that the average worker in communist nations.

So what you have is equality, but, by comparison, poverty.

However, if this makes everyone happier - so be it. The happiness is related to the relative security of the system.

But, wouldn't you agree that shooting (or sending to prison) someone who rents a machine to another is evil.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


Ned,


Why do workers flee Mexico, or some other capitalist country where workers flee.

They're not fleeing from, they're fleeing to. They feel there will bemore opportunity for themselves and their families in the US. And wasn't the Republic of Mexico originally another socialist experiment gone bad? They did only have one party, that's hardly your typical capitalist setup. I'm a big vague on my Mexican history I'm afraid.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Azazel

That was Stalin. Stalin was an *******. But you cannot use him, or Mao, that didn't even read socialist literature, as a reason for why communism is wrong, and cannot work.

Yes you can, they're both examples of how easily a communist society can be usurped by an individual for his own glorification.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned


I don't know about the average standard of living going up, but I agree on the equality part.

But you do see the problem, though. Workers flee - to wealthier, free market nations where they can have a better life. Even the poor are better off in free market nations that the average worker in communist nations.

So what you have is equality, but, by comparison, poverty.

However, if this makes everyone happier - so be it. The happiness is related to the relative security of the system.

You always have a problem when you have a world system with different nations and capitalists. In the capitalist nations the government has pressure to give in to the demands of the capitalists. Otherwise the capitalists will take their capital elsewhere. In the communist countries people who can do better in the capitalist nations are going to go there, and that causes a shortage of skilled labor. Really, only a world system would work. Even a world system of capitalist nations would be better than what we have now.

QUOTE] Originally posted by Ned
But, wouldn't you agree that shooting (or sending to prison) someone who rents a machine to another is evil. [/QUOTE]
Yep

[DuncanK]

Not sure what happened on that last post. I hope you can figure it out.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK
Even a world system of capitalist nations would be better than what we have now.

With the exception of maybe Cuba, we do. Or at least they're moving in that direction. And even Cuba tries really hard to get Canadian "capitalist pigs" to spend their vacation dollars there. So much for the great socialist experiment.

[Dinner]

The investments have to do with special arrangement for the order zone only. South of the border zone you'll find investment is but a shadow of the northern areas. BTW Mexico has placed large sections of its economy off limits (petrol, banking, the list goes on and on) because moneyed interests in the country are afraid of competeting against U.S. companies.