Can we Create an America that can Lead the World

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Azazel
ok, I seem to loose the point where I parted the thread. Could you please reintroduce me?

Sorry Azazel, there are two threads that have melded into a simple debate over capitalism vs. communism. Just pick up anywhere or start off on a comment of your own.

[Az]

Ned, you're not making arguments. Please stop.


btw, it seems that Duncan kinda drove himself into a pit with that "all private enterprise is exploitation" reasoning.

Duncan, get out of there ,I know you can.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


I'm not sure what the point is, but I better not EVADE anything.

There can be not private ownership of the means of production in communism. Does this answer you question?

Then why did you say this?

"I'm not really talking about regular people who start up a small business because that's what they want to do."

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Arrian




Out of curiousity, do you consider spending time thinking up an invention to be hard work? Or does "hard work" only encompass manual labor?

-Arrian

It depends. I could innocently stuble upon some idea, or I could work hard doing experiments and such. One is hard work, the other isn't.

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


It depends. I could innocently stuble upon some idea, or I could work hard doing experiments and such. One is hard work, the other isn't.

Ideas never just happen, they come from previous experiences and perceptions. Just because someone suddenly has an inspiration doesn't mean that they didn't work hard to get themselves to that point.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Azazel
Ned, you're not making arguments. Please stop.


btw, it seems that Duncan kinda drove himself into a pit with that "all private enterprise is exploitation" reasoning.

Duncan, get out of there ,I know you can.

I've been clear to say that all private ownership in not exploitation. But when you hire someone to use your equipment to produce profit, that is exploitaion.

[Velociryx]

But they are both inventive....are you saying that if it happened to be easy, it is less valuable?

In that case, would it not be the natural inclination for EVERYBODY who invented to talk at length about how hard it was?

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned
On the issue of who decides what is fair, this will get one back to central planning which has proven itself not to work. Workers will flee. Then comes the barbed wire, dogs, and back-shooting border guards.

Communism is paradise.

Why would they flee?

[Az]

OK, here's an argument.

I am not claiming that capitalism is evil and terrible, because these things are relative.

My claim is that a socialist system will make people happier, on a general basis.

Ned, I lived in the SU, and no, I didn't see barbed wire, and no guards and dogs. Stop the crap, please.

[Velociryx]

That's right....they should be able to just come over and use your equipment FREE to make stuff....I forgot!

-=Vel=-

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Willem


Ideas never just happen, they come from previous experiences and perceptions. Just because someone suddenly has an inspiration doesn't mean that they didn't work hard to get themselves to that point.

People do stumble upon ideas

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Velociryx
But they are both inventive....are you saying that if it happened to be easy, it is less valuable?

In that case, would it not be the natural inclination for EVERYBODY who invented to talk at length about how hard it was?

-=Vel=-

You have to be mentally conditioned by a very conservative society to believe that somebody who just stumbled upon an idea should be elevated to an elite status.

[Arrian]

I was watching the "wings" channel last night, and they had a program on a guy who had developed somewhere in the vicinity of 100 innovations in the area of flight safety (the best known of which is the "stall warning" indicator system that lets a pilot know that they are about to lose lift and fall out of the sky). This guy knew aviation and spent his life figuring out ways of making it safer.

Did he work hard, or did he exploit the rest of us? I'm curious, because I may have to go get myself a pitchfork and take back what he has stolen from me!

-Arrian

[Willem]

Originally posted by DuncanK


People do stumble upon ideas

Mainly because they've educated themselves enough to recognize the possibilities when it occurs.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel
OK, here's an argument.

I am not claiming that capitalism is evil and terrible, because these things are relative.

My claim is that a socialist system will make people happier, on a general basis.

Ned, I lived in the SU, and no, I didn't see barbed wire, and no guards and dogs. Stop the crap, please.

The SU had travel restrictions inside the country and it was a long way from the West. The border between East and West was barbed wire, mine fields, dogs and back-shooting guards. And don't tell me that the workers were not trying to flee.

As to force - could someone own his own farm in the SU? I really don't know the answer to this question. But it was my understanding that millions were killed when they were forced to give up their own farms.