The Dark Horse of the UN Security Council

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Frogger
No, it's apparently your job to make their oppressors' lives easier (so long as they keep their noses clean wrt US interests).

As events in practically every other West African country have shown recently, it is better to have some sort of stable government than no government at all. I'm sure the 75% of Guineans who can't read are only being held back from forming a functional democracy by the small amount of aid they receive from the U.S. These countries are a lot like Haiti, in that they seem to defy efforts to improve themselves. IMO that the military aid saves many more lives than the dictator takes, and if you doubt that have a look at what's going on in that neighborhood over the past couple of decades.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

F*ck you Bods, this is also about the two-faced nature of the US still supporting corrupt and violent regimes when it suits their purposes - this attack on Iraq is politically engineered, nothing more.

I'm not going to whine on about the fact that it's about oil (except for the fact that the 2nd largest reserves will be neatly under the control of a US sanctioned government), it could be fair to say that it's also about the weapons industry if that were the case, given Bush's highly suspect relations with the US arms industry...

This war is wrong, at least until the weapons inspectors come up with some hard evidence to the contrary.

Well as long as we are demanding hard evidence, why don't you give us some in support of the following assertions that you have made here:

1) The war is about oil

2) The war is about the weapons industry

3) Iraqi ties to Al Quaida are non-existent, and everyone knows it (good luck with this one especially)

Originally posted by MOBIUS

One of the things that amazes me most is that the world's only superpower has had years to build up a credible dossier of evidence against Saddam using the most sophisticated technology and it's come up with hearsay, grasping at straws - that's an embarrassment to the CIA ()...

I guess you misunderstand the meaning of hearsay. It does not mean that you can hear the Iraqis say they are thwarting the inspectors (as the U.S. evidence allows).

Originally posted by MOBIUS

By it's own rules, surely the US should be laying some heavy whup-ass on NK, instead of ***** footing round Kim Jong-Il like a timid puppy - no one is taken in by this...

Which rules are those? I am more than passingly familiar with the U.S. constitution, U.S. law, U.S. policy etc., but I've never heard of any rule that forces the U.S. to pursue policies that could hardly be more self destructive.

Originally posted by MOBIUS

Why is the US still supporting a regime like Guinea, if it is so interested about toppling 'bad guys'?

Answer me that.

Because the likely replacement for the regime in Guinea is worse than the status quo. It's so simple a simpleton could have it explained to them, though apparently it is not self evident to one of limited mental capacity.

Btw, those meds must be working out for you, you seem to have reduced your emoticon use by at least 300%, or only twice the level of usage of the average raving lunatic.

[MRT144]

sikander, and youre saying that the replacements of saddam will be better than saddam?

what, an american institutionalized democracy that just reinforces every notion that the terrorists have and will no doubt encourage more antipathy from the region? woohoo, bring on the terrorism! i think that september 11th was just a good reminder of how good we are at containing that.

[The Mad Monk]

The terrorists have a notion that they are part of a rising Islamic tide that will sweep the world for the greater glory of Allah.

We are correcting that notion.

[MRT144]

so thats the reason al queda has done all that they have? wow, considering that all their targets have been american or pro american, i dont know if thats neccesarily true. why havent they gone after germany, france, canada? are they also not a part of this world?

what is hamas' reasons for terrorism? israel. i dont really know if what you say is true.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MRT144
so thats the reason al queda has done all that they have? wow, considering that all their targets have been american or pro american, i dont know if thats neccesarily true. why havent they gone after germany, france, canada? are they also not a part of this world?

Err, haven't you been following the news over the past year and a half or more? There have been plots against France and Britain foiled recently, as well as Al Quaeda cells ferreted out in Germany and Canada.

[MRT144]

its a shame then that american intelligence is so terrible.

i dont really think they are so much pro islamist as they are anti west. maybe you can find me some sources where these groups say "New Islamist Order"

[The Mad Monk]

If bin Laden and Hussein have one thing in common, it's this: both have dreamed of uniting Islam under one flag, a single political entity. bin Laden's followers compared him to Suleyman; Hussein has compared himself to Nebudchadnezzer (however the hell you spell it). Do you trully believe either would stop there, if that ambition were fulfilled? Look to Sudan for an answer, or East Timor.

[MRT144]

uniting islam, but thats not the same as uniting the world under islam.

in the larger picture shouldnt we improve relations with political bodies in the middle east rather than trying to dictate their policies and leaders? i think starting a war with saddam does nothing to help do that. i guess im just being reasonable in believing in diplomacy.

[Usually Insane]

Sikander: If the US wants to invade a country and topple it's governement and it ain't my country, I don't care
But walking around, asking for support, money and all the other countries approval... SOD OFF!

It's the US that started this mess, they clean it up, they shouldn't act like it is all saddams fault.

the US armed the al-queda, they armed Saddam, they are continuosly arming dictatorships around the world, so either they say it clear out: "don't use our weapons against us" or they loose some buildings and a lot of innocent lives now and then.

this war is wrong because US wants to be the good guys when in fact they should be ashamed for their actions.

the day bush apologises to all the people who have suffered under their puppets and promise to bring them all down, one in one or all in one go, at it's own expense. and insitute a democratic governement free from meddling americans, that day I'll give my support, and not a second sooner. so stop B*tching about us not wanting to support this etnical cleansing!

[Velociryx]

MRT: ten years of diplomatic efforts have been flatly ignored. How long do you propose we try?

Usually Insane: Actually, it's the other way around. If we DON'T go through the UN, and get multi-national support, we are seen as acting unilaterally, and the $hit storm for doing that is far worse than the one we're seeing now.

Generally, we get that support by GIVING money, not asking for it. Turkey alone got 4 billion dollars for use of their bases.

-=Vel=-

PS: Gatekeeper....preach it! I've been saying the same thing over in the "Twit" thread!

[MRT144]

velociryx, im a pacifist unless there is genocide(or the religious equivilant) involved. i believe in diplomacy for as long as it takes. 10 years saddam has been contained to iraq so im not seeing a failing in what we have done.

[Velociryx]

While I certainly don't condemn the noblity of the position you have chosen, I would say "ask the Kurds."

Containment has not helped the Iraqi people one whit. The live under a regieme based on fear. Dissenters are gassed.

That's what containment has given us, IMO.

Time to take out the garbage.

-=Vel=-

[MRT144]

the biggest problem i have with that arguement though is that now we are dictating politics in another country. but not every country where there is a similar situation. only this one nation, with this one man, who we couldnt get out the first time.

containment isnt about helping the people in the given country. it is their country and yes, the conditions are deplorable by any point of view. containment is about keeping those conditions from spreading to more people.

I dont think that the US invading iraq will change that in the long term. western influence hasnt really benefited anyone in the middle east, and this i fear will just be another case of that.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MRT144
the biggest problem i have with that arguement though is that now we are dictating politics in another country. but not every country where there is a similar situation. only this one nation, with this one man, who we couldnt get out the first time.

Do you criticize your roommate when he cleans the bathroom because he doesn't clean the livingroom at the same time? Do you declare war on everyone at the same time when you play Civ, just to be consistent? What possible point would there be to such suicidal rigidity, and in what other sphere of life do you practice it?

Originally posted by MRT144
containment isnt about helping the people in the given country. it is their country and yes, the conditions are deplorable by any point of view. containment is about keeping those conditions from spreading to more people.

I dont think that the US invading iraq will change that in the long term. western influence hasnt really benefited anyone in the middle east, and this i fear will just be another case of that.

Western influence has not benefitted the ME? A simple comparison of statistics between now and 100 years ago should give that idea the shaft in short order. Broadly, 100 years ago there were very few states in the ME, with much of the area under the control of the moribund Ottoman empire. By almost any measure the people of the region are healthier, more numerous, live longer and are wealthier by a huge margin. What has been a proven relative failure in the vast majority of cases is self governance by the Arab world, as their retrograde movement in freedom and democracy and well below average improvements in education, economics etc in comparison to the rest of the world indicate.