Rugby - Hemisphere Wars!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Bearcat
Got a game against Tualatin Valley on Saturday
Unfortunately I injured my knee in practice and I might not be able to play

Steroids, Bearcat, steroids!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

I did not know that ? how much older is he?

Quite a bit. You'd probably remember him. Here's a biog I found.

Anthony Herbert

One of Jeeps? favourite sons, Anthony Herbert played 10 tests in a long representative career, which included two World Cups. A deadly tackler, Herby was a valued utility back and popular team man with the Wallabies, playing at centre, wing or fullback - and famously scoring a try against New Zealand as a head-bandaged flanker in 1992! Anthony played in the 1987 World Cup but unjustly missed the Wallaby tour in 1987. He bounced back to tour France in 1989 and NZ in 1990 and was a member of the victorious 1991 World Cup campaign.

(He's now the Manager of the Queensland Reds)

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Better negotiate a non-returnable advance then?

Most advances are non-returnable. You're safe.

Cripes!! Caligastia is Jonah!!

No, no. Caligastia makes Jonah look like a flea. But I have it on good authority that Caligastia has his hair cut in the Jonah style.

Looking back it was a sign of how rugby would go really ? allegations of SH sides not playing in the ?spirit? of the game At least that Welsh side can be proud that they used no gamesmanship like the NZ lock who threw himself out of the lineout pretending he had been clobbered.

Last time I checked on this any player from the EC counted as ?local?. Tournaire does not impact our ?foreign? quota for example whereas Gelderbloom, Kafer and Kronfeld (still on fire btw Cal and now badly needed with Backy and Moody crocked). It?s something to do with EC ?restriction of trade? regulations ? I mean the freedom to move freely and work anywhere in the EC ? the RFU cannot go against it. Silly is it not?

1. But the fact that they mention an Irish passport suggests it's the Republic, doesn't it? A Northern Ireland passport would be an English passport?

2. How do the EC "restraint of trade" regs apply to all those ridiculously expensive s***** transfers?

it has become a Franco-German dominated boys club

Given their stands against the Americans over Iraq at the moment, I won't hear a word said against them. Even if some or most of it is self-interest.

I actually think if Australia can do it there must be some hope for Italy.

I'm not sure when Italy started playing rugby, but I suspect we have a longer tradition. And less competition from s*****. Our main rival is AFL but it's not the national mania that s***** is in Italy. We do, after all, have two states that are rugby oriented, even if it's L*****, and that is gradually shifting towards rugby anyway. Ultimately, of course, the Italians, as much as I love them, can sometimes, um, struggle to agree on anything between themselves, so I suspect their chances of building a machine are fairly limited. It'd be fun to see in action though.

The big fear is the USA ? should they get serious they have a huge meat market there, and we would no doubt end up with a four quarter game too?

Thankfully that stupid gridiron game and baseball and basketball are so far ahead of rugby that their game will never catch up. BTW, Totai Kefu is off to Japan after the WRC.

I beg to differ ? players from both those sides are on record as saying England are the worst side to lose to because they are ******.

Well, of course, but that's different. There's no worse fate than losing to a mob of *******. That's a given. It's like losing to your mother-in-law. On another level, though, there's nothing worse than losing to a team you respect.

I can?t remember the Loe story ? fill me in please?

Richard Loe. All Black prop of about 10 years ago. South Island farmer. Copped a year or more for deliberate head stomping, smashed a Wallaby winger's nose through his head with a swinging arm without a pretence of a tackle, and so on.

I still believe the tri-nations needs an edge ? you must be aware it struggles for a TV audience at times? You need a villain. There?s a ready made one this time around ? why not market it?

It doesn't struggle for TV audiences here or in New Zealand when the matches are played here or in New Zealand. The problem is when matches are played in South Africa. The time differences have the matches played at midnight (here) and 2am (in New Zealand). Nothing much you can do about it.

But only the last results count really

But you're on record as suggesting the great Welsh teams of the 1970s were the best ever! And, as my esteemed - and very tall - Kiwi chum pointed out, they couldn't beat the ABs then! Sorry, I had to delete the rest of your para because everything after the bit I've quoted was rendered meaningless by the bit I've quoted.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for your 50 Civ Gold to say the ABs won't win the WRC.

[Havak]

The 50 was surely that the ABs will beat the Boks by more points than England did in November?

And that they won't of course. They are nowhere near tough enough up front.

I'll not bet on them or England right now. I'll wait for the tri and six nations to finish then decide. We may possibly be the best side in the world - particularly as the ABs never field a first team these days, or at least in their retrospective "we won the match really" sessions they claim they didn't. We certainly are the best side at Twickers. But taking it to Aus where the entire anti-Pom machine will be focused against us - it's a big ask all right and we tend to blow big asks.


That Welsh side of the seventies was the best ever IMO - didn't I make it clear enough that the ABs only beat them in those two games by 'cheating'? And I'm only funning with you - a lot of the boys in the valleys still hate the ABs with a passion for those games and blame them for the decent into the current 'whatever we can get away with' culture - they'll never be forgiven.

Now thats what you lack down there you see - opponents who are happy to hold a blood grudge for thirty years. We on the other hand get it all the time.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Last time I checked on this any player from the EC counted as ‘local’. Tournaire does not impact our ‘foreign’ quota for example whereas Gelderbloom, Kafer and Kronfeld (still on fire btw Cal and now badly needed with Backy and Moody crocked). It’s something to do with EC ‘restriction of trade’ regulations – I mean the freedom to move freely and work anywhere in the EC – the RFU cannot go against it. Silly is it not?

The problem with England and the EC is that no British government would acknowledge the fact the EC is absolutely necessary and that England needs it. UK's interests would be better defended if the British representants were striving to adapt and discuss the Europeans laws and projects as hard as they try to be exempted from the said laws.

The problem is, as far as I understand the situation, the UK is quartered between the USA and the old continent, England needs the USA as much as it needs the EC and is embroiled in a complex diplomatic game in which trying to maintain the illusion of a former colonial glory is also a part of the equation (don't misread me, England's past is really fascinating and some of my preferred themes in litterature are Victorian SF and Steampunk ).

About the Europeans Rugby players, the enforced EC laws are related to "freedom of movement and work" inside the EC. According to the European treaties, a European citizen is free to work in the member country of its choice and the same laws must be applied to the european citizen and the national one in the said country. This means a EC player can not be considered as a foreigner in any of the Rugby championship inside the EC and is not concerned by the quotas as it would be a restriction to the "freedom of work inside the EC" principle.

Early seventies? Ted Heath’s Tory administration taking us into Europe on a slim referendum win and with a virtually hung parliament. Sad times. The EC could be a very positive thing but, and with apologies to Tamerlin and LdiCesare, it has become a Franco-German dominated boys club and has driven a wedge between us and the Commonwealth as you say. There is a huge decision coming for us in the near future – jump in and wrestle control away from those two a little or disengage entirely to stop the money sink. I’m undecided myself.

As it is today, the EC is far from perfect but is absolutely necessary. The problem, as usual, is that the European construction is in the hands of the politicians and the bureaucrats, the first kind is unable to understand the needs of the people and always chose the less "risky" solution (on the electoral level of course), the second kind has no insight beyond the technical aspects of its task. As I said it before, UK's input would be more valuable and respected inside the EC if its representants were really trying to further the European Union instead of working in order to preserve the UK from the European "thing".

Do you think by the way any of your players see the irony in criticising our media for being ******?

Olivier Magne declared that the worst thing when you lose against England is to hear the English players saying "good game" when they shake hands at the end of the game.

I still believe the tri-nations needs an edge – you must be aware it struggles for a TV audience at times? You need a villain. There’s a ready made one this time around – why not market it?

A controversial proposition came last week from RFU's vice-president, Jeff Probyn, who advocated the creation of a Five Nations Tournament including NZ, Australia, South-Africa, England and France along with a "second division" tournament including Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy and Canada. Though I am certainly one of the few in favor of such competitions this side of the channel I think Ireland should be included in the higher level tournament.

Thanks for trawling up the results Finbar – sad reading for the Welsh eh?

I said the Red Devils were the most feared players in the Tournament, not in the world. In the 70's The real scarecrows were indeed the AB.

And no the AB will not win the RWC, England or France will...

[Havak]

if the British representants were striving to adapt and discuss the Europeans laws and projects as hard as they try to be exempted from the said laws

*Ahem* who just embargoed whose beef totally illegally?

Check out the compliance ‘league tables’ for the comparative position of the UK and it’s co-members in terms of adopting directives.

We need various exemptions as it stands. There is not a UK party that will ever accept the EU working time directive for starters. More is the pity.

As for the Euro personally as a traveller I want us in to it but lets face it it has been a total disaster? The Irish seem to hate it – prices went through the roof for them.

England needs the USA as much as it needs the EC and is embroiled in a complex diplomatic game in which trying to maintain the illusion of a former colonial glory is also a part of the equation

This is actually very shrewd. I’m also pleased you are interested in our past.

The colonial mind set has not died here. And we are still at the core the same ‘spoiling for a fight’ mix of Germanic and Celtic tribes that butted heads with your country for a thousand years. Every so often those things come to the surface like in Blair’s head long rush to war right now.

I just wish France were objecting on more altruistic grounds. And I suspect the USA will not soon forget your stance. It depends whether that bothers you or not. Btw Finbar’s country have committed Special Forces I understand?

According to the European treaties, a European citizen is free to work in the member country of its choice and the same laws must be applied to the european citizen and the national one in the said country

Thanks for this explanation.

As I said it before, UK's input would be more valuable and respected inside the EC if its representants were really trying to further the European Union instead of working in order to preserve the UK from the European "thing".

Sadly I seriously doubt that most UK Citizens will see themselves as Europeans in my lifetime or several beyond. I’m also sorry that I must say that I think both France and Germany engage solely in trying to work the European ‘thing’ to their own benefit too. I’m also not convinced by the rapid influx of destitute eastern European countries. I can foresee a point where Blair will lose the Euro referendum and a party will get in on a ‘leave Europe’ footing. We are just lucky right now that the Tories are so shabolically useless.

Olivier Magne declared that the worst thing when you lose against England is to hear the English players saying "good game" when they shake hands at the end of the game.

That is just a stock phrase born of Brit politeness – many Brits say it win or lose. Even I used to say it win or lose! It should never offend. Cultural differences are amazing are they not?

Though I am certainly one of the few in favor of such competitions this side of the channel I think Ireland should be included in the higher level tournament.

They are good right now but they lack the infrastructure Finbar spoke of. They will descend a long way at some point due to this and would risk being whipping boys. I think whether we like it or not that two tier tournament will happen – in financial terms having England play the big other four will be very saleable for TV rights.

And no the AB will not win the RWC, England or France will...

What a great chap you are.

I’ll accept either of those countries rather than an SH side in an instant. I’d like us to meet in the final because then you and I would get tickets as the antipodeans stay away in their droves.

[Bearcat]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Olivier Magne declared that the worst thing when you lose against England is to hear the English players saying "good game" when they shake hands at the end of the game.

Like Havak said, I think it's just a common thing for us Anglophones to do. We say it here in the USA too, although usually it's only the winning team saying it, to be nice to the defeated team.

[Bearcat]

Originally posted by finbar
Steroids, Bearcat, steroids!

Or lots and lots of painkillers.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
The 50 was surely that the ABs will beat the Boks by more points than England did in November?

No, that was Caligastia. Sometime earlier this week I said I was willing to back up my statement that the ABs would win the WRC with 50 Civ Gold to that effect. Thus far you have avoided the challenge.

I'll not bet on them or England right now. I'll wait for the tri and six nations to finish then decide.

Okay, you've avoided the challenge until now. Now you're going to sit on the fence.

We certainly are the best side at Twickers. But taking it to Aus where the entire anti-Pom machine will be focused against us - it's a big ask all right and we tend to blow big asks.

Mmmm. Well, if you could organise for England to play every match at Twickers, you could claim England as the best team in the world. Until then, we might have to consider them pretenders.

That Welsh side of the seventies was the best ever IMO - didn't I make it clear enough that the ABs only beat them in those two games by 'cheating'? And I'm only funning with you - a lot of the boys in the valleys still hate the ABs with a passion for those games and blame them for the decent into the current 'whatever we can get away with' culture - they'll never be forgiven.

A brave attempt at wriggling out of a corner but futile.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I just wish France were objecting on more altruistic grounds.

Frankly, I don't care what their motive might be. At least someone is resisting George Witless.

And I suspect the USA will not soon forget your stance.

Of course they won't. They're already punishing the Germans by withdrawing a lot of troops from Germany, thus knocking a sizeable hole in that part of the German economy which profits via flow-on from their presence.

It depends whether that bothers you or not.

I suspect the French have realised the obvious - whatever self-interest lies behind the French attitude, the American self-interest that lies behind their plan for, um, "regime change", is a thousand times more outrageous.

Btw Finbar?s country have committed Special Forces I understand?

Our sad excuse for a Prime Minister has committed anything and everything he can lay his hands on. He's so far up George Witless' a*se he could clean Witless' teeth from the inside.

I?ll accept either of those countries rather than an SH side in an instant. I?d like us to meet in the final because then you and I would get tickets as the antipodeans stay away in their droves.

Far from it. The place will be packed with Australians barracking for Les Bleus!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Bearcat

Or lots and lots of painkillers.

No, no, Bearcat. The steroids remove the need for painkillers.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I said the Red Devils were the most feared players in the Tournament, not in the world. In the 70's The real scarecrows were indeed the AB.

It's okay, Tamerlin, we know what you said. It was Havak who enlarged the claim to have the 1970s Red Devils as the best of all time. And was promptly shot down in flames.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
*Ahem* who just embargoed whose beef totally illegally?

I don't know what you are speaking about...

Check out the compliance ‘league tables’ for the comparative position of the UK and it’s co-members in terms of adopting directives.

Incomplete sentence: "... in terms of adopting amended directives."

We need various exemptions as it stands.

I agree but exemptions should not become the rule.

As for the Euro personally as a traveller I want us in to it but lets face it it has been a total disaster? The Irish seem to hate it – prices went through the roof for them.

The problem is not the Euro itself but the petty money grabbers that have used the Euro to hide a general price raise. This kind of things demonstrate the limits of an uncontrolled capitalistic system ignoring the human factor. Though the economical crisis was predictable (I was claiming we were on the verge of a severe crisis one year before the infamous WTC incident as the growth was based on overestimated values) its extent could not as it was precipitated and exaggerated by the Twin Towers attacks and the paranoid behaviors all around the world, if you add the lingering threat of war hanging over the world you must admit the Euro has not been helped by the context. Its success can only be evaluated in the long term and believe me I know its cost as I am paying it every day...

This is actually very shrewd. I’m also pleased you are interested in our past.

In spite of the awful mind set of the time and the problems it is still generating, the colonial era is a fascinating one, it is a time of adventures, explorations and discoveries which can not be dissociated from the UK and its glorious navy. I am playing roleplaying games since 1982 and the colonial era, from 1860 to 1950, is my preferred historical period. The exploits of men like Lawrence of Arabia, Sir Richard Francis Burton, Ferdinand de Lesseps (I had to find a french one) and the fictionnal characters like Phileas Fogg, Count Dracula, Sherlock Holmes, Dr. Henry Jekyll/Mr. Edward Hyde, Dr. Fu Manchu, Professor James Moriarty and Captain Nemo are the stuff of dreams and legends. London, Paris and Vienna were the beacons of the world, Africa, Asia and South America were lands of mysteries while Austria was a prison colony ( ), fascinating times.

The colonial mind set has not died here. And we are still at the core the same ‘spoiling for a fight’ mix of Germanic and Celtic tribes that butted heads with your country for a thousand years. Every so often those things come to the surface like in Blair’s head long rush to war right now.

The colonial mind set has not died but the colonial Empire has.
As you can see we are still at the core the same little pests you have tried to get rid of for a thousand years.

I just wish France were objecting on more altruistic grounds. And I suspect the USA will not soon forget your stance. It depends whether that bothers you or not.

I don't think France and Germany are only defending their interests here but are rather trying to enforce a policy they consider is the right one and the better for the future. Moreover USA should not be allowed to dictate their policy over the world by ignoring the rest of the world.

Sadly I seriously doubt that most UK Citizens will see themselves as Europeans in my lifetime or several beyond. I’m also sorry that I must say that I think both France and Germany engage solely in trying to work the European ‘thing’ to their own benefit too. I’m also not convinced by the rapid influx of destitute eastern European countries. I can foresee a point where Blair will lose the Euro referendum and a party will get in on a ‘leave Europe’ footing. We are just lucky right now that the Tories are so shabolically useless.

We already had a discussion on this issue and I think the european integration of this country is necessary though we are actually proceeding to quickly. The lack of european feeling from the British citizens is a matter of concern but there is nothing we can do except proving the EC is the best for your people, it will take time but I am sure we will succeed.

That is just a stock phrase born of Brit politeness – many Brits say it win or lose. Even I used to say it win or lose! It should never offend. Cultural differences are amazing are they not?

I know this little sentence is not meant as an offense but it seems some find it hard to hear after they have lost.

They are good right now but they lack the infrastructure Finbar spoke of. They will descend a long way at some point due to this and would risk being whipping boys. I think whether we like it or not that two tier tournament will happen – in financial terms having England play the big other four will be very saleable for TV rights.

These are exactly the arguments used by Jeff Probyn and unfortunately I think you are right.

What a great chap you are.

It's a real pleasure.

I’ll accept either of those countries rather than an SH side in an instant. I’d like us to meet in the final because then you and I would get tickets as the antipodeans stay away in their droves.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

while Austria was a prison colony ( )

Austria was a prison colony? I didn't know that. I bet Vienna didn't either. I must email them and let them know.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Austria was a prison colony? I didn't know that.

Selective memory...

I bet Vienna didn't either.

Vienna was indeed one the most influential cities at this time, yes sir!