Rugby - Hemisphere Wars!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Sad news Caligastia, you are catch again by Big Brother. I Hope you will take some time to keep in touch with us the week-end.

I will also have some time on weeknights, so you and finbar can go back to behaving...erm...not that you ever do.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Looks like the baton will have to pass. I can hear Tamerlin cranking up from here.

Don't worry Havak, Finbar and I have enough hooks in our pockets to trick him into replying each week-end for years.

That's what I meant. So presumably, prior to then, things were relatively equal? Or, in fact, I'd imagine Wales might have been a strength back in their halcyon days?

In the 70's the Welsh team was actually the most feared team of the Five Nations tournament, they were even called the Red Devils and the Welsh species was most dangerous than the Tasmanian one as they always appeared in pack of fifteen.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
In the 70's the Welsh team was actually the most feared team of the Five Nations tournament

M-hm. I figured that. It explains why Havak's memory fades to oblivion around that time - Celt phobia. He will, of course, argue that he was in nappies at the time. I have it on good authority, though, that he set new standards for infant precociousness. Especially sucking on his plastic bottle of Bitter and chewing on his Baby J**** teething ring.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Well, I certainly would be more involved if I had the time. Last year I was playing on and off in a club here in NYC

Don't tell me! Not another retired tight-head!

[Havak]

That was never his go, though he was capable of it. He organised others to do the hard work. Sensible chap.

Which is partly why I think a Kafer-Herbert combination could be great for us. And as I say Smith can learn a lot from them both. I also very impressed that Herbert, capped umpteen times for Australia, would not register as a foreign player on our books as he qualifies as 'Irish'.

I have to say that kind of nonsense only makes me believe more firmly in tightening up the eligibility regs. Once he pulled on the Aussie shirt he should never have been able to qualify as Irish purely in rugby terms ever again?

They say disappointment travels in pairs.

Poor old Austin – he really queered his pitch with you didn’t he?

So presumably, prior to then, things were relatively equal? Or, in fact, I'd imagine Wales might have been a strength back in their halcyon days?

Well Wales in the 70s were one of those golden periods nations can have, Tamerlin is quite right in saying they were feared. I would say they were arguably the best side ever (I know the Kiwis rate contemporary AB sides that way but I don’t have time now to shatter that fallacy) They had a wealth of superb players come through in the same era – the Bennetts, Williams and Edwards of this world. England had a fairly torrid time in the 70s and 80s (but let us not start me on the social elitism of the RFU again) with the exception of a ground out slam in 1980. I think really it goes in cycles – we must not forget that when France first joined the tournament they struggled as much as Italy have done since they came in.

It remains a great tournament. I think what Tri-nations lacks for me is that element of everyone else hating a single team. England get five cup finals in the tournament where everyone is desperate to turn them over – the closest I see down south is the Wallabies with their “we want to beat everyone” attitude but it’s not quite the same. Certainly the Boks and ABs sometimes seem to lack the motivational edge the fixtures need – how often are the ABs going to let you play badly against them but sneak it in the last minutes?

I’m not sure I want to start my own business right now – I want to round off a few more skills before becoming a freeloader (or consultant as they prefer to be called?). I was also considering doing some freelance writing and maybe penning an unofficial biography – how about “Jonno – no one better”?

Did you know by the way when the man himself endorses merchandise he uses the form ‘Johno’ – and you thought I was just a slavish follower of the man?

AH does all his posting from work? What does he do and how can I get a job like it? I like Apolyton – it’s a nice pressure relief valve.


So Caligastia is a fellow IT worker. I’m sure I already knew that but obviously it changes everything – how can I indulge in the England-AB banter knowing he is a Professional colleague? Ah heck who am I kidding – it’s ‘banter ahoy’ for as long as I post here. Plus with the hooks Finbar and Tamerlin have in store I can’t be the odd one out. Just wait until they play the Boks in RWC after England put another 50 on the boys.

Especially sucking on his plastic bottle of Bitter and chewing on his Baby J**** teething ring.

Sometimes you scare me – how do you know these things?

Don't tell me! Not another retired tight-head!

I thought he was a ‘girly’ – a Centre of some description?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Once he pulled on the Aussie shirt he should never have been able to qualify as Irish purely in rugby terms ever again?

What do the rules say? If you represent your country in a national or "A" team you can't represent another nation? I'd've thought that would prohibit him from qualifying as "Irish" in rugby terms. He can't represent Ireland, so how can he qualify as "Irish"? That's the rugby equation anyway.

It would be argued, though, that his "Irishness" has nothing to do with rugby, that his qualification isn't rugby-based. It's a political/geographical categorisation, the same sort of thing that used to allow non-residents of the UK to qualify to live and work there until the rules were tightened. I have a friend living and working in England as a writer on the basis that her granny was English. Two years after she took advantage of the situation, the rules were tightened. She was allowed to stay but she couldn't do the same thing now.

Poor old Austin ? he really queered his pitch with you didn?t he?

I have no time for mindless idiots. People with wit, yes. Intelligent stirrers, yes. Mindless idiots, no.

I would say they were arguably the best side ever (I know the Kiwis rate contemporary AB sides that way but I don?t have time now to shatter that fallacy)

The great Welsh sides were a bit before my time as a rugby fan. Old hands tell me they were wonderful. The same old hands opine that matches between those Welsh sides and the top AB sides of more recent times would be great to see but they wouldn't care to choose between them.

I think really it goes in cycles ? we must not forget that when France first joined the tournament they struggled as much as Italy have done since they came in.

That's the key. Everything goes in cycles. The Wallabies had their turn and the wheel has now turned. These professional days, though, a very well organised, in-touch, cashed-up administration seems to be the key, which would seem to spell trouble for the Scots, the Welsh, the Italians, and so on.

It remains a great tournament. I think what Tri-nations lacks for me is that element of everyone else hating a single team.

That can't really happen in a three-team competition. There's also - certainly between the Wallabies and the ABs - a deep, underlying respect, despite the sh*tfights that go on. The Wallaby fans' second choice for the WRC will be the ABs.

I?m not sure I want to start my own business right now ? I want to round off a few more skills before becoming a freeloader (or consultant as they prefer to be called?).

It's probably also far from an ideal time - economically and politically - to be striking out on one's own. I remember turning my back on a staff writing job to go freelance many years ago. I was young and brave. I mightn't do it now.

I was also considering doing some freelance writing and maybe penning an unofficial biography ? how about ?Jonno ? no one better??

There's a remainder bin in a bookshop somewhere ready and waiting with that title emblazoned on it!

Did you know by the way when the man himself endorses merchandise he uses the form ?Johno?

As in the "J**** Dummy" - "Outspit Your Hero"?

AH does all his posting from work? What does he do and how can I get a job like it?

99.99999% of his 12,000,000 posts would have been from work. He's a far-from-lowly Public Servant in Canberra. He's coming over (with the others) for our annual Oz Civvers Dinner in about four weeks - I'll mention your name for a position with the bureaucracy.

So Caligastia is a fellow IT worker.

So's MOBIUS. It's catching!

Sometimes you scare me ? how do you know these things?

Your posts are a window to your soul.

I thought he was a ?girly? ? a Centre of some description?

I suspect he has a nifty step off the right.

[Havak]

He can't represent Ireland, so how can he qualify as "Irish"? That's the rugby equation anyway.

It is intriguing. I’ll have to look into his Irish background when I get chance. If he played for the Aussies through residency and has an Irish parentage then on purely political grounds he probably does qualify as Irish for UK Residency. With it his is a very attractive prospect for the club – a Wallaby who qualifies as a ‘domestic’ player for quota purposes. Only in rugby I say, only in Rugby.

I honestly don’t see why we make Australians and Canadians jump through hoops to work here. Or indeed Vice Versa. We should be encouraging cross migration. It might help us with sport for starters. Seriously I don’t see the point of this particular red tape for countries so similar in socio-politcal makeup to us. Not directly connected but it has to be said this country is starting to see a re-surgence in racism

Ireland as you know is a special case – Republic residents could travel freely to and reside in the UK – even draw benefits etc. The two countries also operate a free travel arrangement. Indeed the only time I have ever had to show my passport on arrival was last month, the first time I have been back since 9/11 (which explains the rudimentary check this time around I think). It’s not for me to comment on the irony of RoI checking incoming flights from the UK because of terrorism.

Mindless idiots, no.

Most of his problems stem from runaway ego I think but we’ll not waste time on this one.

The same old hands opine that matches between those Welsh sides and the top AB sides of more recent times would be great to see but they wouldn't care to choose between them.

That same old chestnut of comparing eras isn’t it. They were a great side, would they live with the current ABs – unlikely but will we ever know – the laws after all have changed a lot in thirty years.

Todays ABs are not unbeatable as we are all aware.

These professional days, though, a very well organised, in-touch, cashed-up administration seems to be the key, which would seem to spell trouble for the Scots, the Welsh, the Italians, and so on.

That’s the key – with a Professional infrastructure those countries with more to that infrastructure should thrive. England are a case in point – fifteen years ago it was a gentleman’s club, now it’s a poorly run business, in another fifteen we may have that elusive structure in place. You will see the RFU has told the IRB it can make 20-30 million more from RWC 07 than France – I don’t doubt that for a second, they have experience of selling the product at a premium.

The Wallaby fans' second choice for the WRC will be the ABs.

It’s an NH/SH thing. For us that ‘deep respect’ undermines the tournament. We want Black and Gold battering the hell out of each other. Where’s the edge? I am sure the ABs underperform against the Aussies because they can’t find that extra emotional inch. Just my thought.

Well what do you know – work beckons. Catch up tomorrow hopefully.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Don't tell me! Not another retired tight-head!

I don't really have any fixed position. I'm tall (6'5" - 196cm), so I sometimes play at lock, but I can run fast, so sometimes I'm on the wing.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Well Wales in the 70s were one of those golden periods nations can have, Tamerlin is quite right in saying they were feared. I would say they were arguably the best side ever (I know the Kiwis rate contemporary AB sides that way but I don’t have time now to shatter that fallacy)

There's no need to compare them to present AB teams to prove that NZ are the best, even in their heyday the Welsh never managed to beat NZ.

So Caligastia is a fellow IT worker. I’m sure I already knew that but obviously it changes everything – how can I indulge in the England-AB banter knowing he is a Professional colleague? Ah heck who am I kidding – it’s ‘banter ahoy’ for as long as I post here. Plus with the hooks Finbar and Tamerlin have in store I can’t be the odd one out. Just wait until they play the Boks in RWC after England put another 50 on the boys.

50 gold says the All Blacks beat them by more.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I don't really have any fixed position. I'm tall (6'5" - 196cm), so I sometimes play at lock, but I can run fast, so sometimes I'm on the wing.

Agggghhhhhhhhh! Caligastia is a J**** DL!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
It is intriguing. I?ll have to look into his Irish background when I get chance. If he played for the Aussies through residency and has an Irish parentage then on purely political grounds he probably does qualify as Irish for UK Residency. With it his is a very attractive prospect for the club ? a Wallaby who qualifies as a ?domestic? player for quota purposes. Only in rugby I say, only in Rugby.

The article says that he qualifies for an Irish passport, meaning he would count as a domestic player rather than an import. But which Ireland are they talking about? Presumably Northern Ireland. Does a Republic of Ireland player count as a local in the English comp? The relevant qualifications for an English passport are, I think, either your father holding a passport or place of birth. BTW, Dan's brother was a Wallaby before him, and probably a better player than Dan before injury stopped him.

I honestly don?t see why we make Australians and Canadians jump through hoops to work here. Or indeed Vice Versa. We should be encouraging cross migration. It might help us with sport for starters. Seriously I don?t see the point of this particular red tape for countries so similar in socio-politcal makeup to us. Not directly connected but it has to be said this country is starting to see a re-surgence in racism.

The changes happened around the time England threw in its lot with Europe. A lot of old Commonwealth privileges, etc, went out the window. Not to mention trade arrangements.

That?s the key ? with a Professional infrastructure those countries with more to that infrastructure should thrive.

Which is why, unfortunately, the so-called world rugby elite - the top nations - is never really going to expand.

It?s an NH/SH thing. For us that ?deep respect? undermines the tournament. We want Black and Gold battering the hell out of each other.

The "deep respect" doesn't undermine either the desire to win or the lengths to which players will go to win. There have been some incredibly ugly encounters between the teams. Remember Richard Loe? In fact, perversely, the "deep respect" only makes the teams try harder. There's nothing worse than losing to a team you respect. That ups the pain of losing.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
There's no need to compare them to present AB teams to prove that NZ are the best, even in their heyday the Welsh never managed to beat NZ.

Just for the record, the Wales -v- AB history since 1960:

23 Nov 2002
New Zealand vs Wales
43-17
Cardiff

29 Nov 1997
New Zealand vs Wales
42-7 
London

31 May 1995
New Zealand vs Wales
34-9 
Johannesburg

04 Nov 1989
New Zealand vs Wales
34-9 
Cardiff

11 Jun 1988
New Zealand vs Wales
54-9 
Auckland

28 May 1988
New Zealand vs Wales
52-3 
Christchurch

14 Jun 1987
New Zealand vs Wales
49-6 
Brisbane

01 Nov 1980
New Zealand vs Wales
23-3 
Cardiff

11 Nov 1978
New Zealand vs Wales
13-12
Cardiff

02 Dec 1972
New Zealand vs Wales
19-16
Cardiff

14 Jun 1969
New Zealand vs Wales
33-12
Auckland

31 May 1969
New Zealand vs Wales
19-0 
Christchurch

11 Nov 1967
New Zealand vs Wales
13-6 
Cardiff

21 Dec 1963
New Zealand vs Wales
 6-0 
Cardiff

[Bearcat]

Got a game against Tualatin Valley on Saturday
Unfortunately I injured my knee in practice and I might not be able to play

[Havak]

There's a remainder bin in a bookshop somewhere ready and waiting with that title emblazoned on it!

Better negotiate a non-returnable advance then?

I'll mention your name for a position with the bureaucracy.

Many thanks. I suspect that I couldn’t stay there more than two years without having to take up citizenship however. Can you see that happening?

Your posts are a window to your soul.

I don't really have any fixed position. I'm tall (6'5" - 196cm), so I sometimes play at lock, but I can run fast, so sometimes I'm on the wing.

Cripes!! Caligastia is Jonah!!

There's no need to compare them to present AB teams to prove that NZ are the best, even in their
heyday the Welsh never managed to beat NZ.

I was aware of that – though like yourself I am aware of the controversy around the games in the 70s, particularly the one in 78. Looking back it was a sign of how rugby would go really – allegations of SH sides not playing in the ‘spirit’ of the game At least that Welsh side can be proud that they used no gamesmanship like the NZ lock who threw himself out of the lineout pretending he had been clobbered. Disgraceful, if amateur compared to modern histrionics?

50 gold says the All Blacks beat them by more.

In the tri series you mean? If I have that much left after betting against Australia you are on – you won’t put 50 on them home or away – you are a skilful side with oodles of speed merchants but you are not equipped to handle the biff the way we were. Well maybe McCaw from what I hear but one biffer does not a team make? Get a video of the Twickers game and check some of the incredible combinations launched by their centres, fullback and of course Krige – it was brutal. And Mehrts will snap like a twig if the flankers target him as Wilko was.

Seriously – settle for beating them without a fatality on the field. It’s going to happen one day unless they start playing rugby again.

Agggghhhhhhhhh! Caligastia is a J**** DL!

You are safe – he said he can run fast.

Does a Republic of Ireland player count as a local in the English comp?

Last time I checked on this any player from the EC counted as ‘local’. Tournaire does not impact our ‘foreign’ quota for example whereas Gelderbloom, Kafer and Kronfeld (still on fire btw Cal and now badly needed with Backy and Moody crocked). It’s something to do with EC ‘restriction of trade’ regulations – I mean the freedom to move freely and work anywhere in the EC – the RFU cannot go against it. Silly is it not?

BTW, Dan's brother was a Wallaby before him, and probably a better player than Dan before injury stopped him.

I did not know that – how much older is he?

A lot of old Commonwealth privileges, etc, went out the window. Not to mention trade arrangements.

Early seventies? Ted Heath’s Tory administration taking us into Europe on a slim referendum win and with a virtually hung parliament. Sad times. The EC could be a very positive thing but, and with apologies to Tamerlin and LdiCesare, it has become a Franco-German dominated boys club and has driven a wedge between us and the Commonwealth as you say. There is a huge decision coming for us in the near future – jump in and wrestle control away from those two a little or disengage entirely to stop the money sink. I’m undecided myself.

Which is why, unfortunately, the so-called world rugby elite - the top nations - is never really going to expand.

I actually think if Australia can do it there must be some hope for Italy. Maybe Holland? Canada if they ever get that act together and stop watching Ice Hockey? Japan with their naturalised Kiwis? The big fear is the USA – should they get serious they have a huge meat market there, and we would no doubt end up with a four quarter game too?

And let’s not forget China has a team.

There's nothing worse than losing to a team you respect. That ups the pain of losing.

I beg to differ – players from both those sides are on record as saying England are the worst side to lose to because they are ******. No mutual respect there, even though they mostly later claimed they meant our media not our lads who are ‘nice blokes’. It’s to our players great credit (and remember Healey is not now in the squad and was gagged in Nov anyway!) that they were consistently respectful to both of you before and after the games in November.

Do you think by the way any of your players see the irony in criticising our media for being ******?

I can’t remember the Loe story – fill me in please?

I still believe the tri-nations needs an edge – you must be aware it struggles for a TV audience at times? You need a villain. There’s a ready made one this time around – why not market it?

Thanks for trawling up the results Finbar – sad reading for the Welsh eh?

But only the last results count really and just how did they leak 17 points to a second tier side that couldn’t post a try against us despite playing what their coach called their best game under his direction? Add that to a poor draw with France and being beaten by us and making this AB side red hot RWC favourites seems a bit ambitious?

I watched the end of their game with Wales – only some individual inspiration from the likes of Howlett in the last ten created that margin – otherwise they were every poor.
Okay so the hook is visible again but the point is this – the ABs are not unbeatable – several teams can keep their hands of the Webb-Ellis trophy. I will watch them in the tri-nations with great interest – should they lose to Australia I think we can stop calling them favourites?

[Havak]

btw has Vulture been by recently? I wanted to canvass his opinion on the fact that the Glaws captain Phil Vickery is crocked for the season but that Jonno, after having a yellow card dismissed on appeal, will take the field Saturday for the cup semi-final after all.

A strange twist of fate.