Stalingrad remembered.

[BeBMan]

Hm, I guess that refers to the Czar? So they replaced it with Stalin

Well, then also this old name seems to be no option unless Russia returns to monarchy...

[Zkribbler]

Re: Stalingrad remembered.

Originally posted by Serb
Was it the most decisive battle of WW2 or not?

The bloodiest and most horrific, sure. And those who fought there exhibited awesome courage. Certainly a decisive battle...but "the most decisive battle of WW2," that's a question I can't answer. It can be debated until the Crack of Doom.

[Serb]

BeBro,
Yes Ilya (may I use your previous name Eli?) is absolutely correct. Stalingrad’s original name is Tzaricin, but it’s not about Tzar or monarchy. Tzaricin (later Stalingrad, later Volgograd) was founded on river Tzarca (Queen). The name of this river was the origin for name of the city. It was renamed to Stalingard later. I guess because it’s a place where during Russian civil war Red army had devastating victory over White Army. The person who commanded defense of the Tzaricin was Stalin.

[Master Zen]

In the Russian Civil War, Stalingrad had been defended by Stalin, Budenny and Voroshilov, If I'm not mistaken, then Stalin claimed the credit and changed its name.

The city's name was c hanged to Volgograd during the de-Stalinization of the USSR after Khruschev and now wants to turn back. Hmmm...

I think It would be a good idea, after all it is that name that gave it it's glory as the TRUE turning point in WW2. If the Russians are smart enough to forget names (even if they are those of dictators) and remember history, they will have no problem in renaming the city.

Now, if we are talking about true heroic leaders, the city should be named Chuikograd after Vasili Chukov, commander of 62nd Army which held on to the city for all those months.

[Serb]

In the Russian Civil War, Stalingrad had been defended by Stalin, Budenny and Voroshilov, If I'm not mistaken, then Stalin claimed the credit and changed its name.

Yep, but as you know those guys become his loyal servants later.

Now, if we are talking about true heroic leaders, the city should be named Chuikograd after Vasili Chukov, commander of 62nd Army which held on to the city for all those months.

I'm sure you mean Chuikov. Btw, It was Zhukov who developed the plan of operation ‘Uranus’ some credit goes for him too.
My opinion- I really don’t know. Stalin was bastard, but this victory worth too much for us.

[Eli]

(may I use your previous name Eli? )

No.

[Serb]

As you wish.

[DuncanK]

Why should the name be changed back? I don't think the Red Army respected Stalin. Stalin caused the death of many of them because he insisted on defending the city of his name sake which was only named after him because he was a dictator. The city was never named after him because of his benevolence. Bah!

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Lancer
Sandman, by that logic maybe it should be named Hitlergrad. Because of him the whole of Russia didn't fall. Also, it's a toss up as to which was the worse mass murderer...

by that account you should rename washington d.c. into george d. c. patton - after all, it was washington's crappy leadership that made the war longer (you see how easy it is to make dismissive claims like that).

stalin certainly killed a bunch of people, but he also gave them guns and ammo. literally all the leaders in the ww2 made some critical errors. should roosevelt be wiped off the plaques of many a federal building just because he wasn't precognitive enough to sense that the japanese attack was around the corner? churchill already caused one gallipoli landing, then he screwed up crete and greece, and i guess singapore disaster speaks for itself. then again, both of them made some superb decisions. not one, many of them. stalin evacuated the whole of ukrainian industry - for that alone he deserves praise.

as a fellow eastern european i have a high distaste of dictators, yet i cannot avoid feeling grateful to both soviet people and (yes and) their leader at that time. if it were not for them, all the slavs (me included), gypsies, jews etc would have ended up as soap (my grandfather lived to see liberation from a concentration camp, many other relatives were not so lucky).

as a kid i visited stalingrad, went to the museum and read several books on it. if not the biggest german defeat ever (like destruction of army group center in 1944), this was truly a 'battle for the planet'. i am sorry if this would insult americans and british (who fought bravely for our freedom, too) but the contribution of russians in liberation of europe is a tad more important.

as for the name - it should go back to stalingrad, if not for anything else, then for the battle's sake. volgograd is a stupid name, even czariczin would be better. if there is place de stalingrad in paris, i have no clue why russians would name it so blandly, after a river...

[Fidel]

oh yes and i support remaining kaliningrad into koenigsberg. that would make immanuel kant stop turning in his grave...

[Wernazuma III]

I don't know if it's a good idea to rename a city after a bloodthirsty butcher and madman, who was responsible for the death of millions.
And everyone who claims that Russia has maybe already reflected its history so much that it's "no problem", don't be too sure about it. The russian public hasn't even yet really started to get over with their past. Gulags are still some kind of taboo etc.
Bad idea generally, IMHO.

[Odin]

You Russians really kicked Nazi @ss. I prefer the name left as Volograd, its is the major city on the Volga, is it not?

My school had an exchange student from Volograd last year. she was my age (15 at the time) but she was a senior. (Last grade in secondary school for you Europeans) She was a genius.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
I don't know if it's a good idea to rename a city after a bloodthirsty butcher and madman, who was responsible for the death of millions.

to do list:
1) kick napoleon's coffin out of the invalid's dome
2) bring down cromwell's statue that is before the parliament
3) destroy just about every trace of past leaders, especially great ones - their greatness is measured by the misery of their subjects

(and to counter your argument - but he did it in the 20th century - count the number of democratic regimes in europe when stalin got to power).

as for the issue whether russians hate him or not, you gotta ask them. i'm serbian

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by LaRusso

to do list:
1) kick napoleon's coffin out of the invalid's dome
2) bring down cromwell's statue that is before the parliament

Why bother me with Cromwell and Napoleon? What kind of argument is this anyway? How are they of any importance for the issue?

3) destroy just about every trace of past leaders, especially great ones - their greatness is measured by the misery of their subjects

Mhm, surely true. Every great leader was starving his own population to death and had a totalitarian ideal and a paranoid personality...

(and to counter your argument - but he did it in the 20th century - count the number of democratic regimes in europe when stalin got to power).

Tough times for democracies, when Hitler, Stalin and thelikes are lurking out there. Sure it was an extremist time, but Stalin was even exceeding all the other dictators beside Hitler by far with his brutality and totalitarianism. He was one main responsible for the extremism in his time. Nothing to be honored for.

as for the issue whether russians hate him or not, you gotta ask them.

If they hate him: Good, they won't rename the city.
If the don't hate hiom, they really have a problem with their own past.

i'm serbian

Maybe that explains it

[Lord Merciless]

I disagree that Stalingrad was THE turning point. I think the Battle of Moscow a year before was far more important. Had Moscow fallen to German hands, not only would the Russians lose their most important industrial and communication center, they would also lose Leningrad for sure, and the Russian morale would be completely in the cellar.

I only consider to see Stalingrad as part of many turning points on Eastern Front. Beginning with the Battle of Moscow and ending with the Battle of Kursk. Had Germans won at Kursk, this war could have dragged on for much longer.