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**Spiffor** · January 30, 2003, 18:25

Originally posted by lord of the mark
we're told over and over again we should be multilateral, and we should build a coalition. Why would they not jump at any sign that they DO have coalition partners???

I can't follow you... who are "they" ?

**oedo** · January 30, 2003, 18:28

Originally posted by Spiffor
Germany and France clearly have a self-serving agenda, and they express it as any other EU country in the European Council, where all countries tweak European laws for their own interests. The opposition to war in Iraq was also clearly motivated by political interests (mainly to prove an international existence for these 2 countries, and to please the public opinion IMO)

However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here), and I think the renewed French-German ticket tries somehow to restore this ambition.
France and Germany express their greed in many other places, but not this one. There is a power struggle going on between former lesser countries and the 2 powers, which is about more than pure money or economical or short sighted interests. It is a struggle about who gets to decide the future of the Union.

sounds comprehensive. but the problem is, if this farce goes on this way, they will be no future of this union anymore.
what the vassal state's leaders did, was a diplomatic backstab, nothing else.

**Spiffor** · January 30, 2003, 18:37

Oedo : I disagree with you

Sure, we could think Europe will develop no future, as this crisis might prove the inability of the French-German ticket to become the motor of European integration again, while the other countries cannot agree on anything more coherent than opposing the 2 big ones.
However, if we find that individual states cannot take steps forward, it can be a good occasion for commaunary institutions to do the job instead (like the European Parliament, the Convention for the future of Europe etc.)

Maybe all this mindless barking from the states is the best thing that could happen to Europe's future

**The Andy-Man** · January 30, 2003, 18:56

I think saying there is an all out power struggle in Europe right now is a bit over the top, one is obviously dewveloping though.

Once Again Great Britain Will have to Fight the evil continentals to stop european hegamoney!
(Still shouldn't go into Iraq though

)

**Drake Tungsten** · January 30, 2003, 19:15

However, I think the old French-German ticket wasn't "self-serving" in the meaning it wasn't oriented by pure greed (remember, I'm talking about the past here)

I totally agree with you on this, Spiffor. The French-German alliance was originally created to achieve the most idealistic of goals; permanent peace in Europe. I sincerely respect the effort both France and Germany have put into building a united and peaceful Europe. The world is better off for their efforts.

However, the recent behavior of France and Germany is extremely disheartening, especially when viewed in the light of their noble past behavior. America has gone out of its way to involve our European allies in the decision-making process on Iraq, but our efforts have been repaid with a knife in the back. France and Germany aren't even listening to what the Bush administration has to say; vowing to defeat a second UN resolution before Blix even made his report shows that France and Germany have no interest in anything other than their narrow self interests.

"Old Europe" has already lost the respect of the American government and now it seems that some European governments feel the same way. Is this really what France and Germany want?

**The Andy-Man** · January 30, 2003, 19:21

Well, the US Govt. has bought its lack of respect on itself, I mean they aren't waiting for Blix's report either...

**Drake Tungsten** · January 30, 2003, 19:26

Well, the US Govt. has bought its lack of respect on itself, I mean they aren't waiting for Blix's report either...

Blix's report has already been made and the US did wait for it. Hell, Blix would have never gone back to Iraq if the US hadn't bowed to the wishes of its allies. The US is the one making all the concessions and in return we're getting nothing but empty rhetoric and self-serving behavior from our Old European "allies". Makes one wonder what the transatlantic relationship is worth anymore...

**Harovan** · January 30, 2003, 19:30

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
France and Germany aren't even listening to what the Bush administration has to say; vowing to defeat a second UN resolution before Blix even made his report shows that France and Germany have no interest in anything other than their narrow self interests.

Last time I checked, your great fearless leader said, that the United Stated will invade Iraq no matter what Blix finds and no matter what these meaningless UN pussies say. How is this different from the French and German behavior? Just Bush says, that he doesn't give a damn about the UN and its inspectors in one way (insisting on war), while France and Germany do the same in another way (insisting not to participate).

**Drake Tungsten** · January 30, 2003, 19:38

Last time I checked, your great fearless leader said, that the United Stated will invade Iraq no matter what Blix finds and no matter what these meaningless UN pussies say.

I think you're hearing things. Bush has made it clear that he would allow the inspectors to do their job if the Iraqis were willing to fully cooperate. If the Iraqis don't cooperate (and they haven't), then weapons inspections are pointless. Bush has never been very gung ho on the inspections, since he knew that the chances of Iraq cooperating were slim, but at least he gave the Iraqis one last chance to avoid war.

**Sandman** · January 30, 2003, 19:59

There was no way that the Iraqis would ever be given the chance to appear cooperative.

**DinoDoc** · January 30, 2003, 20:03

Originally posted by Sandman
There was no way that the Iraqis would ever be given the chance to appear cooperative.

Are you completely isolated from any and all news outlets?

What exactly what you call what they have seemed intent on pissing away since the passage of UNSC Resolution 1441?

**Sandman** · January 30, 2003, 20:21

Are you completely isolated from any and all news outlets? What exactly what you call what they have seemed intent on pissing away since the passage of UNSC Resolution 1441?

The Iraqis have been generally praised for their cooperation, particularly with regards to access to weapons sites. Most of the non-cooperation has been over trivia like U-2 flights or the Iraqis complaining that the inspectors are gathering intelligence.

No matter what they submit to, ever more intrusive measures will be demanded, in order to provide a casus belli.

**Jon Shafer** · January 30, 2003, 20:27

It would be interesting to discover where all of the 'unaccounted for' WMDs that the Iraqis used to have ended up...

**DinoDoc** · January 30, 2003, 20:51

Originally posted by Sandman
The Iraqis have been generally praised for their cooperation,

By who?

"Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it." - Hans Blix

**Gatekeeper** · January 30, 2003, 21:05

Amazing how the popularity of surveys jump among posters when, coincidentally, said surveys *support* the posters' viewpoints. **whistles** Wow, I never realized how a "scientific" poll (generally speaking here) of 1,028 adults could represent the will of any good-sized nation.

A poll-driven world, indeed.

Gatekeeper

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