Affirmative Action

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Flubber
-- Many needy students can't attend school because funding was appropriated for AA programs
-- a totally qualified candidate is denied a job ( university lecturer in a specific field while pursuing doctoral studies) because they were holding the job open until next year in the hope that a female or minority might apply
-- Total exclusion of a class of people-- A teacher's college announced they would be hiring all female staff until they have achieved 50% female staff . Estimates indicate it may be as many as 10 years before they next hire a man

Of course, there's no need to take it out of control! AA should be used for encouragement and help a continuous process of "equalization", not running over individuals like a steamroller!

[Cyclotron]

AA should be run over with a steamroller. It is bigoted and counterintuitive. Let the best students get in the best universities; it's a no-brainer.

[Charlemagne120]

AA is such a load of crap! I mean honestly all these minorities and all are always complaining and arguing for wanting to be treated equally? Want equality? then get the same points as us white guys!

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Let the best students get in the best universities; it's a no-brainer.

If you thionk that those with the best marks are always those with the highest potential, you're a no-brainer. Remember that the educational system does NOT give everyone the same possibilities (and the difference public schools/expensive elite schools is just the most obvious example)

[Ned]

Originally posted by Caligastia


AA benefits everyone except whites.

Correction: except middle-class white males.

[Ned]

I believe that affirmative-action may be appropriately used to remedy actual lack of diversity. Perhaps a university could apply to a government agency or to a court to demonstrate that they needed to the use a race-based "adder" in order to achieve a student population that actually represented our society. But unless they receive such approval, I suggest that race-based discrimination should be illegal in the United States.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Charlemagne120
AA is such a load of crap! I mean honestly all these minorities and all are always complaining and arguing for wanting to be treated equally? Want equality? then get the same points as us white guys!

As soon as you volunteer to be a minority, I'll take your ever-so-deep-and-profound statement seriously.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Gibsie


So half of whites could potentially benefit? Damn, that's virtually none!

Are we talking about who does benefit, or who could potentially benefit? I thought it was the former. Who could potentially benefit is irrelevant anyway. I would be interested to see what percentage of the women who have benefitted from AA are white, and for that matter, what percentage of white women have benefitted from AA. Or how about a racial breakdown of all AA beneficiaries in comparison to a racial breakdown of the USA? I doubt in any of these cases that the white percentage would be significant.

[Charlemagne120]

oh surprise surprise ur from where Guynemer? ann arbor? oh sounds like someones a little PO'ed at ur hometown univ. there in mich.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer


As soon as you volunteer to be a minority, I'll take your ever-so-deep-and-profound statement seriously.

I volunteer! Me! Me! Pick me!

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III
If you thionk that those with the best marks are always those with the highest potential, you're a no-brainer.

Oh, and I'm sure race, gender, and economic status are much better indications of potential than academic acheivement.

[orange]

Responce to Al Speer's thread:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
I said something like this before here and nobody seemed to understand what i was trying to say...

Do we ever?

First to assume a few things... AA is a system of admitting additional people of a certain group into a college.

That's not the complete definition, but ok...

Most minorities are legitimately able to go to these colleegs on their own. The problem is there are some who would not have been accepted if it were not for AA. These people are at the bottom end of the spectrum in tersm of academic requirements and were primarily accepted because of their race.

In this paragraph you seem to say two things.

A) If it weren't for AA, legitimately eligible blacks (regardless of race) wouldn't be accepted because of racist whites. (This I can agree on)

B) Those that do get in are the academically lesser of the pool. (This is where you lose me)

As AA is concerned with admissions only, those people who only got ito college because of AA MUST have sufficient wealth because:

1) They barely got into college in the first place, merit-wise being judged differently from other students.

How does that support your claim that they must be wealthy? Can't this apply to poor minorities as well?

2) It can be assumed that they, thus, are not merit-wise eligible for scholarships.

Not necessarily true. And you certainly give no proof.

3) It can thus be assumed that those who benefit from AA must be upper class minorities.

Don't know how you got to this conclusion.

AA does NOT help the following people:

1) poor minorities who have worked hard and achieved good merit as they will be qualified to go to these colleges without their race being taken into account.

Not necessarily, but we'll run with the assumption...

They will also be able to get scholarships, whether need-based or meritous.

need based is still based on merit, to an extent, and working hard doesn't necessarily mean the greatest SATs or GPA, which would negate your second claim.

2) Poor minorities who can just barely get into college and are able to get in with AA but, being poor, can not afford college and do not have the merit for scholarships. There are also only so many need-based scholarships to go around.

I don't see how this applies for low cost, local, community, or 'in-state' schools. For private schools I can see your point, but otherwise, no.

3) Whites who get shafted with AA anyway

Agreed

Hell and I'm Anti-AA for anything but Economics.

[Al B. Sure!]

) If it weren't for AA, legitimately eligible blacks (regardless of race) wouldn't be accepted because of racist whites. (This I can agree on)

No I was saying that, in order to achieve certain numbers of minorities, schools have to judge minorities differently... for example, with Michigan, being a minority gives you 20 points on their system which is worth more than a perfect score on the SAT's... so minorities can get accepted with LESS merits than other students.

B) Those that do get in are the academically lesser of the pool. (This is where you lose me)

See above.

That should explain everythign else

[Capt Dizle]

Afirmative action is as immoral as slavery and not only should be outlawed, a blood sacrifice is needed to cleanse the stain from this great nation.

[Caligastia]

Seeing as I edited this so long after I originally posted it, I'll give it a bump.

Originally posted by Caligastia


Are we talking about who does benefit, or who could potentially benefit? I thought it was the former. Who could potentially benefit is irrelevant anyway. I would be interested to see what percentage of the women who have benefited from AA are white, and for that matter, what percentage of white women have benefited from AA. Or how about a racial breakdown of all AA beneficiaries in comparison to a racial breakdown of the USA? I doubt in any of these cases that the white percentage would be significant.

Which was in response to Gibsie...

Originally posted by Gibsie


So half of whites could potentially benefit? Damn, that's virtually none!