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Is it feasible to switch from an income-based tax system to a wealth-based tax system

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Japher

    Don't go to school, work digging a ditch for lesser pay - works and is fair, IMO
    You haven't explained to me why this should be so. I know that within the current system you have to encourage people to go to college, but that doesn't make it fair.
    "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
    "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
    "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sirotnikov
      while i agree that a nurse or a ditch digger are doing very difficult jobs - anyone can do that with little training.

      people who invest their lives and intellect into society should rightly so get more.
      .
      Huh what kind of nurses do you have ?? Not the 4 year degree kind that we have, I presume.


      **Notation of personal bias on this issue-- Mrs. Flubber is a nurse in a Cardiac Intensive Care Unit -- if you don't think that she is a highly trained professional, well you have no idea what a nurse does
      You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by DuncanK


        You haven't explained to me why this should be so. I know that within the current system you have to encourage people to go to college, but that doesn't make it fair.
        Fair is what the market says it is. Since a mechanized digger can probably do what a 100 ditchdiggers could do with a shovel, the wage of the shovel wielder is pretty low. In fact even minimum wage is probably too much to make it economic to have 100 guys with shovels rather than the tractor

        But moving it into an area without an obvious mechanical replacement . . . Fast food workers have a job where they work incredibly hard for low pay. But the market is fair here. Don't do this job if you do not want to. You don't just wail that your chosen job does not pay enough, you make your own decision about what job is worthwhile for you.

        The fact that fast food pays low has created a situation where a lot of students work in the industry and get their first real life experience in the workforce
        You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

        Comment


        • #64
          You haven't explained to me why this should be so. I know that within the current system you have to encourage people to go to college, but that doesn't make it fair.
          I really want to address this issue, and began to write a response, realized it was too big, moved it to Word to work on it, realized it would be a book. A book in which I would have to teach economics and the values and termoils that come with life.

          No, it is not fair that some people end up digging ditches for their whole lives, but it in one way or another it was that persons choice. Their choice alone. I also pointed out that there are those who do not go to school who become more successful than anyone who does, and they can't hit the awesome J. So if someone does not go to school and ends up digging ditches it is fair, because it is what they chose.

          Within the current system they do encourage people to go to school because schools breed what is commonly refered to as "skilled-labor". Notice that labor is still in their. Yet, IMO, going to school can hinder you if you don't chose to learn the right things. What are those right things???? I have no idea, but I know the things I did learn in school weren't them.

          The current system also bases all monetary units on the production of a nation. Unfortuatly, ditch diggers are at the bottom (or near bottom) of that production value. While they do the actual digging of the ditch, they were told were to dig, and that person was told were to dig, and the person before that was told why to dig it their, and the person before that put up the money to dig the ditch. Anyone can dig a ditch (almost anyone), fewer people can manage people who know how to dig a ditch, even fewer people then that can translate the digging of the ditch for the managers, even fewer can plan the design of the ditch, and an even fewer can afford the digging of the ditch.

          Yet, it is all these people that determine the value of a nation. Without the person who puts the money up to have the ditched digged, there wouldn't be a person to design, translate, manage, or even dig. If that person didn't exist then there would be a decrease in production value. Thus, it is not only a reasonable deduction, but a factual calculation, that the production unit values of those involved in the digging of a ditch are ranked in decreasing value as money holder, desinger, translater, manager, digger. The digger gets paid less because they are at the bottom of the production unit value chain. If there were no people who could dig ditchs then there rank would definitly change, yet anyone can dig a ditch.

          A digger could eventually rise to manager or even a translater through on the job training (so that they can still get use out of them for digging) and through on the side training. Yet, to reach the desinger level and in some cases the translater they must get educated, and that is what happens most easily at school. I am not saying that they could not learn this in the field, yet to be recognized by those above them it would greatly help. Why? Because none of these positions would exist unless there was someone putting up the money, and that person is going to go with someone they know can get the ditched digged, not just some dingleberry who says they can do it.

          Question: How do you become the guy with the money?

          I don't know, but I know this much, you can start as a digger or anywhere in between.
          Monkey!!!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Ozz

            Silly Cranklyhead

            You said it, the employer pays SO low he can't complete with welfare. I don't feel sorry for him at all, bastard.
            just saw this one

            The employer was an economic development association that needed someone to run around in the office, photocopy stuff, answer the phone etc . It paid around 30,000 which was as good as what several hundred workers could make if they worked year round at the fish plant. But the plant had not been open year round since it was built.

            But the workers could earn their wages at the plant for 14 weeks and then go on unemployment at 55% of gross pay-- which after taxes is something like 65%-75% of net. So the choice was work at full pay or not work at 2/3 pay. Not working also meant you could cut and sell firewood for extra cash, or hunt/act as a guide etc etc. All these activities brought in a little extra cash.

            So thats the bastard employer

            Originally posted by Ozz


            No, your tax dollars went to feed the greedy.

            Welfare/UIC fraud is a minor economic problem compared with the Federal government's corruption and
            mismangement.
            Well either is a waste so I would prefer my rates were lower
            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Flubber
              Fair is what the market says it is.


              "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
              "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
              "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Japher


                I really want to address this issue, and began to write a response, realized it was too big, moved it to Word to work on it, realized it would be a book. A book in which I would have to teach economics and the values and termoils that come with life.

                No, it is not fair that some people end up digging ditches for their whole lives, but it in one way or another it was that persons choice. Their choice alone. I also pointed out that there are those who do not go to school who become more successful than anyone who does, and they can't hit the awesome J. So if someone does not go to school and ends up digging ditches it is fair, because it is what they chose.

                Within the current system they do encourage people to go to school because schools breed what is commonly refered to as "skilled-labor". Notice that labor is still in their. Yet, IMO, going to school can hinder you if you don't chose to learn the right things. What are those right things???? I have no idea, but I know the things I did learn in school weren't them.

                The current system also bases all monetary units on the production of a nation. Unfortuatly, ditch diggers are at the bottom (or near bottom) of that production value. While they do the actual digging of the ditch, they were told were to dig, and that person was told were to dig, and the person before that was told why to dig it their, and the person before that put up the money to dig the ditch. Anyone can dig a ditch (almost anyone), fewer people can manage people who know how to dig a ditch, even fewer people then that can translate the digging of the ditch for the managers, even fewer can plan the design of the ditch, and an even fewer can afford the digging of the ditch.

                Yet, it is all these people that determine the value of a nation. Without the person who puts the money up to have the ditched digged, there wouldn't be a person to design, translate, manage, or even dig. If that person didn't exist then there would be a decrease in production value. Thus, it is not only a reasonable deduction, but a factual calculation, that the production unit values of those involved in the digging of a ditch are ranked in decreasing value as money holder, desinger, translater, manager, digger. The digger gets paid less because they are at the bottom of the production unit value chain. If there were no people who could dig ditchs then there rank would definitly change, yet anyone can dig a ditch.

                A digger could eventually rise to manager or even a translater through on the job training (so that they can still get use out of them for digging) and through on the side training. Yet, to reach the desinger level and in some cases the translater they must get educated, and that is what happens most easily at school. I am not saying that they could not learn this in the field, yet to be recognized by those above them it would greatly help. Why? Because none of these positions would exist unless there was someone putting up the money, and that person is going to go with someone they know can get the ditched digged, not just some dingleberry who says they can do it.

                Question: How do you become the guy with the money?

                I don't know, but I know this much, you can start as a digger or anywhere in between.
                I hope you didn't spend too much time on this. I'm just not seeing how any of this is fair.
                "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Flubber
                  Huh what kind of nurses do you have ?? Not the 4 year degree kind that we have, I presume.
                  We have nurses with 4 year degrees too, but they don't do that kind of work. The nurses with 2 year degrees do that, I think.
                  "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                  "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                  "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I hope you didn't spend too much time on this. I'm just not seeing how any of this is fair
                    Really? I did spend some time on that, and if you are so ignorant as not to see that life is not fair, that it is based on your worth to society and not on how loud you whine then I am not going to waste any more time with your sniffling.


                    Monkey!!!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      The problem is not taxes. The problem is wages.

                      We are in a period where technology replaces labor and more and more people are being employed in the services industry. Cheap labor is spilling over the border on the one hand and manufacturing jobs are being shipped overseas hand over fist.

                      Unless the 50% of Americans who do not vote decide to get involved in politics the gap between the rich and poor will only grow exponitially over the next 20 years.

                      We are already imprisioning a huge proportion of our people.

                      People say that our standard of living is getting better. Well, that is because of technology. In terms of real wages things are getting worse and will continue to worsen as long as the rule of law is in the hands of corporations and not the common man.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by jimmytrick
                        We are in a period where technology replaces labor
                        This period is called capitalism. Technology has always been used to replace labor, esp. skilled labor.
                        Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Japher


                          Really? I did spend some time on that, and if you are so ignorant as not to see that life is not fair, that it is based on your worth to society and not on how loud you whine then I am not going to waste any more time with your sniffling.


                          Your worth is not determined by your wealth, income or status. Most people are worth about the same. Some people aren't worth squat. People who do low paying jobs are very usefull to our economy.
                          "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                          "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                          "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                          Comment


                          • #73

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by chegitz guevara


                              This period is called capitalism. Technology has always been used to replace labor, esp. skilled labor.


                              And I would say that while the productivity of labor has increased greately with capitalism, real wages have increased little thoughout the era, and have decreased since the 70s in this country.
                              "When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
                              "All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
                              "Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by DuncanK


                                People are paid what they are worth with a capitalist society?! A ditch digger should be the richest man then. Well, maybe those nurses who have to help you with your bowel movement

                                The rich are always going to get out of their taxes even if we were to tax them more. There is no way to make it fair.
                                And this differs from other economic systems how? Communists who were powerful managed to game their own system to acquire a modicum of wealth and privilege which they were even allowed to pass on to their children. The problem is a much more general one, namely corruption. Your choice amongst economic system sis to be in a poor corrupt system or a rich one.

                                I favor sales taxes. To keep these from becoming regressive simply exempt food, rent, medicine, education etc. from the tax. It's simple, much more cost effective than having every person in the U.S. (almost) fill out a tax return, which costs many billions of dollars in wasted hours, labor and taxes. Plus it gives people back some of their privacy.
                                He's got the Midas touch.
                                But he touched it too much!
                                Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

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