NK: What Should be Done?

[Sandman]

South Korea should get China to put pressure on the North to give up the ghost. I'm sure they can come up with a deal, probably involving the removal of American forces from the peninsula.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Shove it where the sun doesn't shine, boy.

Great debating skills man.
Is it what your sergant says when you ask- "where I should put my rifle, sir"?

I speak to the level of the audience — in this case, YOU.

We can't speak on the same level by definition. If you want to speak on my level speak Russian. It's your luck and advantage that I don't know your monkey language good enough.

I dare you to call me a one-dimensional "rah-rah" type American again, you poor sod. You'd think that, having been around 'Poly since Nov. 2001, you'd have learned a thing or two about some of the posters here. Apparently not.

Of course not. There are several thousands posters on Poly. It simply impossible to know everyone here.
So, who the f*ck might you be, sir?
IIRC, it's our first clash. So, don't be shy, show me your best strike.

Well, gee, Serb, surely you realize that the viewpoints expressed in American media are quite diverse and never truly "with one voice." Surely our global dominance of planetary culture would give you an indication of this? Surely a casual scanning of CNN and FOX News would give you two differing views of what various TV media types are spouting in regards to this situation. Surely a look at the various op-ed pieces in U.S. newspapers and opinions from those in other forms of U.S. journalism — i.e., televison, Internet — would give you a clear picture that there are differing views espoused w/i American media.

IOW, Serb, the media isn't in lockstep here when it comes to opining on foreign relations decisions made by Bush, et al. In fact, the press has a somewhat adversarial relationship with TPTB in the adminstration. But of course, *none* of that is evident to enlightened foreign folks like yourself, huh?

Blah...blah...blah...
I've asked about EXACT link, to see on which source you've based your opinion and what I have in resonse- childish whine about the "greatest press in the world". Thanks for the lecture. It was a bit sh*tty and has no connection to my question of course, but I guess you spent some time creating such brain farts as "our global dominance of planetary culture ".

All Americans — and their institutions — are monolithic and in lockstep with Der Fuhrer Bush, huh?

What a bullsh*t. Are you nuts?

If you need links to see the obvious, then you are beyond hope.

In other words- "I don't have links, scan the CNN and FOX and find them by yourself".

(Oh, BTW, my newspaper will be covering the anti-war demonstrations today [Saturday] that are planned in parts of the nation, that nation being the United States of America. Y'know, that evil nation where everyone is allegedly a Bush clone?)

And? You think I don't know that not everyone in USA supporting this war? That I don't know about those demostrations? I don't get it, what are you trying to prove?

Uhm ... maybe because it was a *covert* program? IOW, they didn't want it broadcast to the world what they were doing?

Of course. Then explain to me what prevented them from acting like Saddam? Why they just didn't said- "we have nothing, it's just American fairytales. WHY they admited this? WHAT FOR if not for blackmail?

Did what now? As in reveal the existence of their program? Hey, NK *didn't* reveal it. U.S. diplomats brought up before them in October and NK caught them off guard by actually admitting to it and saying they would continue with the program, regardless of what they signed in 1994. Things have continued from there.

Again, why they admited this? Why they just can't said- f*ck off, we have nothing and you have no right to check us without UN resolution (and we know that you'll never get it), you have no evidences and even if you have something, we could always claim that it's just propaganda and excuse for American agression against independent country. And you know what, many people will buy it."
Instead of this they admited that they have this programm and broke an international threaty, result- huge negative impact on already sh*tty NK image.
What was the reason for such behavior?

Political de-march? What's that?

There is no such word in English? Strange.
Well, it's when one man says to another- "hey, you should stop doing this and stop doing that" and the second guy replies- " f*ck yourself mister, I'll continue to do what I want."

If it has anything to do with Bush's inclusion of NK in the "Axis of Evil,"...

It has nothing common with that.

As for NK's reasoning, I suspect it's blackmail.

Then what the f*ck are you talking about?
I said- "I think it's blackmail". You launched sh*tload of crap in your insulting reply and now you are talking about the same as I did?

But then again they could truly be aiming to acquire a significant nuclear arsenal, since what they allegedly want in return *now* for stopping their nuke program is apparently the same damn thing they were getting under the 1994 Framework Agreement — namely, fuel oil shipments, food aid (which, BTW, apparently will continue regardless of the political situation)

Really?
Gentle uncle Sam- always keeps his word. Are you sure it will continue regardless of political situation? Why it's stoped?

and the continued construction of those light-water nuclear reactors. Why go to all this trouble just to get what you had before?

I guess they thought that there will be no shipments anymore and more probably they want more.

**shrug** Promise? Oh, goody! I bet I can spit farther than you can, too.

Good for you, buy yourself a candy, you victim of abortation.

[TCO]

Re: NK: What Should be Done?

Originally posted by Seeker

US Troops:
My view on the US troops is to keep them there, but to pull them back out of the spotlight. They should not be right in the middle of downtown Seoul, no matter how 'fun' it is. Move them to bases in the mountains in the North east of SK. No Korean likes to see the sprawling mass of foreign territory in the middle of the capital. Scale it back, and instruct the troops on the meaning of 'low profile'.

1. This option doesn't seem to fit with the others. It is not designed to fix the problem of the North but to placate the South. Plus if they don't want us in Seul, maybe we shouldn't be there overall. My Dad fought there. But it looks like that memory is kinda dim. The SKs want to be big boys...they think that the problem is between the North and US. Well fine. Let them deal with it than.

2. You left out a few other options:
A. Continue (or restart) paying ransom. Perhaps even if you don't get anything tangible.
B. "If talking doesn't work...talk some more." I believe that is a quote of one of the SK leaders.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
Given the results the [Bush] doctrine has given both the Korean Peninsula and the world, is it time for the US to reassess its utility?

Explain. What is the Bush Doctrine? How did it cause the NK to cheat on their agreement (which had no effective inspection requirement anyway) for most of the 90's?

[TCO]

I think a lot of people who are criticizing Bush for not punishing NK are just trying to help Kim in his actions which are timed now to try to take advantage of our coming war with Saddam. (And they don't really want Bush to punish Kim...they just want a distraction from Iraq.)

These problems will be a lot easier if handled one at a time.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper

Why go to all this trouble just to get what you had before?

One thing they don't have right now, or did then, is a formal non-aggression treaty with the US. That was one of their very first demands.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Frogger
They're not acting insane; they're going to come out of this better than they went in.

They've already rejected the US caving in to them, KH.

[DanS]

The US was never going to cave into NK. It's all just a delaying tactic until we can more fully devote our attention to the situation. We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DanS
We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

We have already ruled out cutting off food aid to the country, a mistake IMO. Short of actually sending in more troops into SK (an option I don't think that they would agree to given the political cliamate), what cards do we have left to play?

[TCO]

Originally posted by DanS
The US was never going to cave into NK. It's all just a delaying tactic until we can more fully devote our attention to the situation. We haven't even played any of our escalation cards.

We're busy with a ship chain towards the Persian Gulf. We'll worry about the purple civ later.

[DanS]

"Short of actually sending in more troops into SK (an option I don't think that they would agree to given the political cliamate), what cards do we have left to play?"

We haven't ruled anything out. The only card we've played is the suspension of heavy fuel oil shipments ($400 million per annum). We also supply some food aid, which we can stop (155,000 metric tons in '02, or about $62 million @ $400 per metric ton).

As for escalation, we can refer the matter to the SC for sanctions, embargoes, and lawful missile interdiction (at least $500 million per annum). We can seize or pressure others to seize Kim Jong Il's foreign assets ($4 billion). We can move troops and carriers into the region. We can ratfvck them by "turning on" the country with SK media.

That's enough to start.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Serb
Is it what your sergant says when you ask- "where I should put my rifle, sir"?

I wouldn't know, Serb, as I haven't served in my country's military as of yet. Perhaps you could receive enlightenment by posting that same question to, say, one of the U.S. military veterans who frequent the forum.

We can't speak on the same level by definition. If you want to speak on my level speak Russian. It's your luck and advantage that I don't know your monkey language good enough.

The Cyrillic alphabet was never my strong point.

Of course not. There are several thousands posters on Poly. It simply impossible to know everyone here.
So, who the f*ck might you be, sir?
IIRC, it's our first clash. So, don't be shy, show me your best strike.

I'm just another American who's seen my nation stereotyped one time too many and decided to point out that, yes, America is truly a land of diverse opinion.

Blah...blah...blah...
I've asked about EXACT link, to see on which source you've based your opinion and what I have in resonse- childish whine about the "greatest press in the world". Thanks for the lecture. It was a bit sh*tty and has no connection to my question of course, but I guess you spent some time creating such brain farts as "our global dominance of planetary culture ".

You didn't read it very well, did you?

What a bullsh*t. Are you nuts?

Are you an enlightened, well-educated and open-minded person? No.

In other words- "I don't have links, scan the CNN and FOX and find them by yourself".

Ah, yes, you must be one of those people who would need a damn *link* to prove it if I told you the world was round, huh? Sorry, but there are some things in life that do not need Web links to prove they're true, and the fact that the U.S. media and Americans themselves are divided and opinionated over what Bush, et al., are doing is one of them.

And? You think I don't know that not everyone in USA supporting this war? That I don't know about those demostrations? I don't get it, what are you trying to prove?

Well, Hell's bells, Serb. The impression I received from your initial post was one of deliberate ignorance and intentional provocation. Wasn't that why DanS told you to answer the question rather than beating around the bush on a peripheral subject?

Of course. Then explain to me what prevented them from acting like Saddam? Why they just didn't said- "we have nothing, it's just American fairytales. WHY they admited this? WHAT FOR if not for blackmail?

So we appear to perhaps be agreeing on something. As for the "why" of matters, I think it was simply timing: Bush, et al., are pre-occupied with Iraq, why not throw a wrench into things and see what happens? Which is exactly what NK has done. Some may subscribe to the notion that NK's leader is insane, but I don't think so. Not after what I've read about him. Spoiled, perhaps, but not insane. Not completely.

Again, why they admited this? Why they just can't said- f*ck off, we have nothing and you have no right to check us without UN resolution (and we know that you'll never get it), you have no evidences and even if you have something, we could always claim that it's just propaganda and excuse for American agression against independent country. And you know what, many people will buy it."
Instead of this they admited that they have this programm and broke an international threaty, result- huge negative impact on already sh*tty NK image.
What was the reason for such behavior?

We've already gone into this above.

There is no such word in English? Strange.
Well, it's when one man says to another- "hey, you should stop doing this and stop doing that" and the second guy replies- " f*ck yourself mister, I'll continue to do what I want."

Hey, cool, learned something new today then. I suspect you're also learning that there are no Russian equivalents for some things said in English as well, hmm?

Then what the f*ck are you talking about?
I said- "I think it's blackmail". You launched sh*tload of crap in your insulting reply and now you are talking about the same as I did?

I was responding to your first post in this thread. Wasn't that clear from the quoted material? I did see your second post to this thread only after I submitted my post, and I see you only added your second post after being bugged to answer the question at hand (which you didn't do in your initial post, which is what I was replying to).

Really?
Gentle uncle Sam- always keeps his word. Are you sure it will continue regardless of political situation? Why it's stoped?

Gentle Uncle Josef- always keeps his word.

Anyway, I never said that Uncle Sam was perfect (and never have in my entire time at 'Poly). Furthermore, SK's new president said today that Bush, et al., had considered a military strike — ala former President Clinton — on Yongbon, but tossed that idea out the window and chose the current course.

So, to answer your question, I'm quite certain that current course will lead to a resolution w/o any sort of U.S.-initiated military action because, well, it's already been thought of and ruled out.

I guess they thought that there will be no shipments anymore and more probably they want more.

Prior to the events of October, I saw no indication that the United States and her allies were going to cut off fuel oil and food aid to NK. Nor did I see any halt in construction of the lightwater reactors, although they are (admittedly) behind schedule. But even in the United States itself, it can take 10 years or more before a nuke power plant is up and running ... so I didn't take the delays in NK's lightwater reactors as anything other than some sort of red tape snafu.

Good for you, buy yourself a candy, you victim of abortation.

Y'know what, Serb? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and *not* assume you believe I should've been ABORTED during my mother's pregnancy.

Just what does "abortation" mean, Serb? Do tell, and put my mind at rest.

Gatekeeper

[DinoDoc]

Serb's a troll Gatekeeper. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

[Seeker]

It still amazes me that we got through the cold war alive if Serb represents the Russian people...

GP: the base in Mapo is about the ONLY thing that gives the Northern agitprop ANY play down here amongst the younger generation, the evangelicals*, and older student protest movement from the 70s.

The big base serves no military purpose that it couldn't do in the countryside. Right now it is like a huge sign that says 'Welcome to a US vassal'.

It is related because in order to solve the NK problem, the US must get SK 'onside' through legitimate, non-coercive means.

DanS: I'd like to assume that cutting off food aid is off the table for humanitarian reasons. If you cut it off, you aren't going to cause some kind of revolt, if they could revolt they would, and nothing from the privileged officer class.

To All: To expect China to do anything, let alone 'invade', is unrealistic. Statements cost nothing, they may even 'officially' close the border, but they still feel that Korea is their traditional 'little brother' and will, covertly or otherwise, support anything that lessens US influence.

*Really wierd thing about evangelical protestantism here in Korea, it's like the reverse of the US, they tend to support what in the US would be called 'left-wing' causes.
They also have this touching missionary style that is really naive, they just come up to you and tell you that Jebus loves you, and expect for you to just come with them or something.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP


Explain. What is the Bush Doctrine? How did it cause the NK to cheat on their agreement (which had no effective inspection requirement anyway) for most of the 90's?

Bush doctrine was trying to get into a pissing contest with NK when they found out they'd been cheating.