Why are Americans so different from the rest of us Westerners

[Myrddin]

Surely it is that they are by definition not elections?

[Dauphin]

The fact that they were part of the USSR's empire since the end of the war makes the whole point about electing the USSR friendly communist governments kind of moot (and obvious).

Its also worth pointing out that all three of those countries had major revolts that were crushed by soviet troops. Given the choice, they would not choose Communism.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
If democratic elections are not free then they are by definition not democratic.

Hah, tell that to Mayor Daley or, for that matter, to every leftist apologist in the world who contends that communism is good and that guys like Stalin are democratically elected.

Of course I know that those elections were rigged. But when we are accused of overthrowing democracy in Iran, it matters whether the elections were rigged in the first place.

I have no idea how much Soviet manipulation went in to rigging the elections in Iran in 1953. But I suspect there was a great deal of it.

[Dauphin]

How much soviet manipulation went into other democracies the US overthrew? Guatemala for example? Or is it sufficient to say "it was because of self-interest"?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
How much soviet manipulation went into other democracies the US overthrew? Guatemala for example? Or is it sufficient to say "it was because of self-interest"?

I don't recall any detail about Guatamala. Are you sure we overthrew a democratically elected government - or did we just assist the government to suppress communist revolutionaries?

[Dauphin]

United Fruit (a US company) requested the CIA overthrow the avowed capitalist government because they were passing land reforms and wouldn't pay UFCO about $10 million in compensation.

[Provost Harrison]

The thing to bear in mind about terrorism in the UK is that we are also far more adjusted to it, especially in terms of counterterrorism. It is something the US needs to start getting used to. Note that our counterterrorism is quite low key and doesn't affect everyday life, whereas the US government seems to have overacted, and moved in the wrong direction with regards to civil liberties, which is a shame...

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
United Fruit (a US company) requested the CIA overthrow the avowed capitalist government because they were passing land reforms and wouldn't pay UFCO about $10 million in compensation.

Well, Sagacious Dolphin, taking land from a foreign private company may be within the rights of a sovereign nation; but taking it without paying for it is an act of war against that company and by extension that company's mother nation. In the case of Guatemala, if the facts are as you state them, I think we had the every right to to resist the uncivilized aggression of the government of Guatemala against Americans.

I understand that Britain has certain countries in Africa under economic sanction because of similar uncivilized actions against British subjects. If Britain had any balls, it would declare war against the barbarous regimes oppressing and killing British subjects.

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Japher
Why are American so different from the rest of the west?

Simple... Money.

The average American has about the same amount of money as the average person in the other industrialized country. The wealth is, in general, more unequally distributed, so we probably have more poor people here. That's not to say that poor people don't realize the importance of money.

Originally posted by Japher
Since we accept that fact, our society, economies, and even politics have moved to reflect that ideology.

Unfortutely in favor of those with property.

Originally posted by Japher


The rest of the Western world has not accepted the fact that money is the source of all power (good and evil) because they do not want to face the ugliness of the truth. They therefore wallow in their patheticness of morals and ethics... ideals that have nothing to do with politics.

How can money do good without ethics? Nevermind, I'm sure I won't be interested in the rhetoric.

Originally posted by Japher

When the rest of the world declines (and they have) the offer to become more like Americans then they have elected to become, or stay, more ethical and more poverish. Oh, well... your loss.

Your assuming your policies are the best, which they are not.

Originally posted by Japher

I think that America is so diveresed and so driven by money, free trade, and humanitarian issues that the rest of the world becomes blinded to the actuall ways that make us the same as every other country. Such oversights lead to thread like this, and to the bettering of America and American culture becoming dominant the world over...

Why are you even claiming now that the US is interested in humanitarian issues? You just said that we only care about money.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned


Well, Sagacious Dolphin, taking land from a foreign private company may be within the rights of a sovereign nation; but taking it without paying for it is an act of war against that company and by extension that company's mother nation. In the case of Guatemala, if the facts are as you state them, I think we had the every right to to resist the uncivilized aggression of the government of Guatemala against Americans.

a) No it isn't. Otherwise we'd have a war every time a court decision went against a foreign country

b) The US didn't declare war against Guatemala, they just bombed it and then lied about it. And United Fruit had violated enough laws in Guatemala to justify completely expropriating them. They'd bought politicians, judges, policemen, etc.

c) How much of United Fruit was owned by the upper echelons of the CIA and the US administration at that point in time? Take a guess...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ned
Since the fall of the USSR, we are much more tolerant of elected communist governments. Witness the current struggle in Venezuela. Despited the chaos, we have stayed out of it.

a) Yeah right. You almost got caught with your hand in the cookie jar already (in the attempted coup)

b) The Venezelan government isn't communist by any stretch of the imagination. They're about as leftist as France is.

[KrazyHorse]

1954 caused the deaths, over the next 20 years, of ~150 000 Guatemalan civilians, murdered by right-wing death squads for voicing any criticism of their government. Not a peep out of the US. Where were the CIA planes that had bombed Arbenza and his democratic socialists?

[DuncanK]

Originally posted by Ned


Well, Sagacious Dolphin, taking land from a foreign private company may be within the rights of a sovereign nation; but taking it without paying for it is an act of war against that company and by extension that company's mother nation. In the case of Guatemala, if the facts are as you state them, I think we had the every right to to resist the uncivilized aggression of the government of Guatemala against Americans.

I don't think many Americans would support war against a nation who took property from one of our companies. If they invest there they take a risk. Our government may regularly bail out companies when they make poor investments, but Americans only support it when they feel its neccessary for the economy.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Frogger
1954 caused the deaths, over the next 20 years, of ~150 000 Guatemalan civilians, murdered by right-wing death squads for voicing any criticism of their government. Not a peep out of the US. Where were the CIA planes that had bombed Arbenza and his democratic socialists?

Sounds like a very large figure. You sure?

Anyway...I expect the Vietnamese did more damage to their people...

[KrazyHorse]

150 000 is the one that's mostly used. Very bloody stuff went on there for a long time. Similar numbers "disappeared" in Chile too...