The Problem with Libertarians...

[Al B. Sure!]

they just don't give a damn...

What libertarians don't realize is that America today in 2003 is incapable of having a working libertarian society. There are far too many people who depend on the first and fifteenth... too many people who do not have parents for moral influence... too much general inethical behaviour occuring... too much of a liberal attitude of if it feels good, do it...

A libertarian society that forms in this environment will only result in an even worse cycle of poverty for millions of Americans. Of course, to libertarians, this is just 'tough luck'...


thanks

[aaglo]

I don't give damn either...

[SlowwHand]

When first looking with still asleep eyes, I thought this was a rant against librarians.

But you're right, libertarians are blind to facts.

[DaShi]

Bah!

[Apocalypse]

Just have the government raise kids and then have a libertarian society once they get out of the goverment centers.

[Kropotkin]

Very Plato of you Apocalypse

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Very Plato of you Apocalypse

My beliefs on this have nothing to do with Plato, as in I didn't get this idea from reading his works.

I just believe the only problem that libertarian societies can't get around has to do with children. Have one of the few functions of the government be this and then you are set.

It could help with population control too, since parents would have to pay taxes.

[tandeetaylor]

I don't want my kids to be just like everyone else. I want them to be better. I'm not a baby machine, making babies for the country. I'm having them for me. What's the point of having children if you're not going to raise them and love them?

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
What's the point of having children if you're not going to raise them and love them?

Continue on your genes.

The problem is that is kinda selfish since so many kids aren't loved.

[tandeetaylor]

So since some kids don't have love and parents, none of them should? Wow, good point...

I don't care about my genes. I care about my baby.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
So since some kids don't have love and parents, none of them should? Wow, good point...

A common misconception is that loving parents are needed for children. One of the reason so many people are messed up over this issue is soley because they harp on how their parents don't love them, but not on any results of this. You remove the jealousy and envy and you remove the major problem with kids who don't have loving parents.

[One_Brow]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
A common misconception is that loving parents are needed for children. One of the reason so many people are messed up over this issue is soley because they harp on how their parents don't love them, but not on any results of this. You remove the jealousy and envy and you remove the major problem with kids who don't have loving parents.

The results of loving parents include:

A stable emotional environment (encourages growth)
A delayed need to be self-supportive (encourages balance)
Proper boundaries (encourages self-discipline)

Of course, none of these are "needed", but that does not make them unimportant.

Let's put this another way: if there was no reason for the "jealousy and envy", it wouldn't exist.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
A common misconception is that loving parents are needed for children.

Is that so? Why don't you clear it up for us? Substantiate your claim.

One of the reason so many people are messed up over this issue is soley because they harp on how their parents don't love them, but not on any results of this.

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that I must think kids need love because my parents didn't love me? No, some of my parents loved me, and that has made all the difference.

You remove the jealousy and envy and you remove the major problem with kids who don't have loving parents.

So it's as simple as that, huh? What about the rich development that occurs as a result of someone loving you, paying attention to you, spending time with you, and teaching you? You want to take that away just so no one will envy each other?
The way to remove the problems of kids who don't have loving parents is to create more of them (loving parents), not take them all away.

Do you seriously think that kids don't need love? Seriously?

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by One_Brow
The results of loving parents include:

A stable emotional environment (encourages growth)
A delayed need to be self-supportive (encourages balance)
Proper boundaries (encourages self-discipline)

Of course, none of these are "needed", but that does not make them unimportant.

Parents aren't needed for this though.

Originally posted by One_Brow
Let's put this another way: if there was no reason for the "jealousy and envy", it wouldn't exist.

Yes, but this can come from things like not having parents buy kids things, feeling left out when your parents don't come to a game when other kids' parents do, and other areas that really don't matter but still create these emotions in kids with bad parents.

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
Is that so? Why don't you clear it up for us? Substantiate your claim.

That's what I am doing at the moment.

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that I must think kids need love because my parents didn't love me? No, some of my parents loved me, and that has made all the difference.

No, I am not talking about. I'm talking about messed up kids. They get upset over not having loving parents because other kids have loving parents, not because they are missing out on something vital that can't be obtained in some other way.

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
So it's as simple as that, huh? What about the rich development that occurs as a result of someone loving you, paying attention to you, spending time with you, and teaching you? You want to take that away just so no one will envy each other?
The way to remove the problems of kids who don't have loving parents is to create more of them (loving parents), not take them all away.

But you can't create loving parents for everyone. Furthermore, like I said earlier, the vital functions of parents can be replaced by the government.

Originally posted by tandeetaylor
Do you seriously think that kids don't need love? Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I don't beleive I have run across a more riduclous argument and thats saying something. A child doesn't need the love of parents??? Seriously, this is a joke and simply a thought exercise right??

Perhaps your Brave New World appeals to you but certainly not to me, my wife or my daughter.

PS. Sorry for the flames Apoc. I didn't realize it was you when I first replied, but I still stand by my post. I think it one of the most if not THE most important ingredients to allowing a child to develop.