Music versus Lyrics

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Oh, ok... well, I'm not really up on alot of that stuff. Being in Canada, when it comes to rap I'm pretty much limited to Kazaa and allmusic.com when I want to find out about new stuff. Sucks.

And I have checked out the Lost Tapes (some of it) and that stuff is tight.

Have you heard the stillmatic promo "freestyle" (I quote it because I don't know if its a real freestyle). The one with the H to the izzo M to the izzo Jay Z diss on it. I love that kind of stuff. You probably have on US radio at least. Do you know of any other stuff kind of like that, as in less mainstream/ major release Nas stuff? Like I said, here in Canada I'm pretty much in the dark. Or do you have any websites that you check frequently that tell you about it?

[Switch]

NOTE: When I say 'music,' I'm referring to lyricless music, ie instrumental.

I'd have to say music. Though lyrics may convey more emotion, music can also convey emotion, and is fitting in places where lyrics might actually detract from the mood. As well, music can convey emotion by itself or accompanied with lyrics, while lyrics have much more difficulty conveying emotion without instruments.

And finally, from a musician's perspective, instruments have a greater variety of sound, are much more versatile (you can put many words to a song, but not many songs with certain words), and are much more able at keeping rythm and beat.

Music also had a wider appreciation value.....Christian and Muslim, Canadian and Tibetan alike can all appreciate, or at least stand listening to, many great classical pieces, although some may not like some of the more ethnic pieces (which is a shame really), yet countless could be offended by the simplist Christmas carol, or cannot stand to listen to pop or hip hop (*ahem* ).

Music, if done right, can also convey the same emotion or mood conveyed by lyrics, while being more subtle or gently about it.

And most importantly, it's a lot easier I find to relax to music than lyrical music (Boris being an obvious exception ).

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Switch
NOTE: When I say 'music,' I'm referring to lyricless music, ie instrumental.

I'd have to say music. Though lyrics may convey more emotion, music can also convey emotion, and is fitting in places where lyrics might actually detract from the mood. As well, music can convey emotion by itself or accompanied with lyrics, while lyrics have much more difficulty conveying emotion without instruments.

And finally, from a musician's perspective, instruments have a greater variety of sound, are much more versatile (you can put many words to a song, but not many songs with certain words), and are much more able at keeping rythm and beat.

Music also had a wider appreciation value.....Christian and Muslim, Canadian and Tibetan alike can all appreciate, or at least stand listening to, many great classical pieces, although some may not like some of the more ethnic pieces (which is a shame really), yet countless could be offended by the simplist Christmas carol, or cannot stand to listen to pop or hip hop (*ahem* ).

Music, if done right, can also convey the same emotion or mood conveyed by lyrics, while being more subtle or gently about it.

And most importantly, it's a lot easier I find to relax to music than lyrical music (Boris being an obvious exception ).

Thats what so great about rap... its so radical. It goes against the norms of all previous types of music.

[Al B. Sure!]

JimmyCracksCorn:

Actually rap is the only remnant of previous types of music. Before the 18th century, music was chiefly a lower class affair. It had simple rhythms with minimal instruments and was mainly someone singing or chanting rhymed stories... most of the time they were dirty drinking songs, but there is still something good about rhymed songs created, memorized, and song by illiterate peasants in Europe, West Africa, etc. Rap is the continuation of this ancient tradition.


And living in Philly, which is a major rap city, I always am kind of close to the rap world. Most of my boys listen to rap so we be sharing information and having arguements about ****. Also, I get songs early. They either get radio play or make their way on mix-tapes. For five dollars spent on the corner or on the subway, I can hear songs months before they get radio play. I was listening to a bootleg God's Son minus a few songs, in fact, two weeks before its official release. Where in Canada do you live? I expect some place like Toronto probably got a strong rap fan base that they would be having bootlegging and a lot of rap stations... but if you live in Alberta or something...

But anyway, I don't know what else I know of by Nas that you might not have... the j-homo freestyle only got radio play and mixtapes because it was about that little beef and that **** always gets played but most unreleased songs only start showing up before an album drops. Lost Tapes got a couple of his unreleased tracks... also peep that song I mentioned already One on One... that **** is blazing... Untouchable Lifestyle... Final Destination, Street Kings, and It's Mine all with Mobb Deep... When Thugz Die off this DJ Clue ****... Nas had a hot song off 8 Mile soundtrack, You Wanna Be Me... My Worst Enemy is hot too... Sometimes I Wonder is nice... there's a lot of ****. Most of it is probably on Kazaa. Among Kings about him dying... this song with Large Proff, Stay Chizzled... i heard it was hot but I aint hear it yet.

as for sites... go to www.hiphopdx.com it's a Canadian hip hop site. also go to www.ohhla.com the lyric place where they got lyrics from some unreleased songs of dozens of artists.


thanks

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
JimmyCracksCorn:

Actually rap is the only remnant of previous types of music. Before the 18th century, music was chiefly a lower class affair. It had simple rhythms with minimal instruments and was mainly someone singing or chanting rhymed stories... most of the time they were dirty drinking songs, but there is still something good about rhymed songs created, memorized, and song by illiterate peasants in Europe, West Africa, etc. Rap is the continuation of this ancient tradition.


And living in Philly, which is a major rap city, I always am kind of close to the rap world. Most of my boys listen to rap so we be sharing information and having arguements about ****. Also, I get songs early. They either get radio play or make their way on mix-tapes. For five dollars spent on the corner or on the subway, I can hear songs months before they get radio play. I was listening to a bootleg God's Son minus a few songs, in fact, two weeks before its official release. Where in Canada do you live? I expect some place like Toronto probably got a strong rap fan base that they would be having bootlegging and a lot of rap stations... but if you live in Alberta or something...

But anyway, I don't know what else I know of by Nas that you might not have... the j-homo freestyle only got radio play and mixtapes because it was about that little beef and that **** always gets played but most unreleased songs only start showing up before an album drops. Lost Tapes got a couple of his unreleased tracks... also peep that song I mentioned already One on One... that **** is blazing... Untouchable Lifestyle... Final Destination, Street Kings, and It's Mine all with Mobb Deep... When Thugz Die off this DJ Clue ****... Nas had a hot song off 8 Mile soundtrack, You Wanna Be Me... My Worst Enemy is hot too... Sometimes I Wonder is nice... there's a lot of ****. Most of it is probably on Kazaa. Among Kings about him dying... this song with Large Proff, Stay Chizzled... i heard it was hot but I aint hear it yet.

as for sites... go to www.hiphopdx.com it's a Canadian hip hop site. also go to www.ohhla.com the lyric place where they got lyrics from some unreleased songs of dozens of artists.


thanks

Cool thanks, some of those I haven't heard of so I'll be downloading them soon.

But I live in Ottawa about 4 hours from Toronto but more importantly 2 hours from Montreal, but I'm not exactly into french rap. And don't be fooled... no place in Canada is a good for rap, honestly. People here like to pretend its better than the US, but its just a front. I suppose in Toronto there is a big(ger) bootlegging scene than the rest of the country, but its still mostly just bootlegging lame Toronto emcees. Or we'll get something two years later.

[Al B. Sure!]

oh yeah and jimmy... the reason why so many unreleased nas songs are getting on the internet and on mixtapes is because he's going to release a Lost Tapes II in early 2003... that man is trying to prove he's the best thing in hip hop so he's getting hyper with releases.

[MosesPresley]

Why do you have to choose? That's why lyrics and music were put together in the first place.

"You got CHOCOLATE in my peanut butter!" "You got PEANUT BUTTER on my chocolate!"

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
oh yeah and jimmy... the reason why so many unreleased nas songs are getting on the internet and on mixtapes is because he's going to release a Lost Tapes II in early 2003... that man is trying to prove he's the best thing in hip hop so he's getting hyper with releases.

Ah, ok... that makes sense. One of the reasons I'm asking is because I'm putting together a CD of all of the better unreleased sh*t/freestyles I can find and I want to make it as broad a mix as possible.

And good insight with the the rap being an ancient tradition thing. I was thinking of it more along the lines of it being radical compared to other types of contemporary music. But thats dead on from a much older perspective. It just enhances my respect for the genre.

[Sikander]

I vastly prefer music to lyrics, and have the music collection to prove it. Music speaks more readily to my emotions because it is intensely emotional at times without being specific. Thus a sad song feels sad even if my sadness and that of the author are about completely different things. This is one reason I like Wagner's overtures so much. They are intensely emotional, and they effect me even though Wagner and I have very little in common by way of specific life events. As an added bonus, instrumental music is much better at transcending language and cultural barriers, and its shelf life is much longer for the same reason.

[Graag]

Tend to agree largely with Sikander... the music is what music is all about... otherwise you may as well read poety.

That said, some (most) of my favourite music has lyrics that I love, though often the way the lyrics are sung mean much more than the printed words.

My favourite group is Nirvana, partly because depending on what mood I'm in I can focus on the music, lyrics, or singing, and they are all amazing.

[Urban Ranger]

Music. First and foremost, there are the classicals where there are no lyrics. Secondly, you can dance to music alone, but you can't dance to lyrics alone

That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match. Upbeat lyrics should go with upbeat music, and depressing lyrics should go with depressing music. Otherwise, they just kill each other.

[Wraith]

--"It's just an interesting song because it's about cartoon characters coming to life"

Is that what that was supposed to be about? The author seems to have confused some characters from books and other sources (like Muppets) in there. Although I guess he could just be a Disnified rapper...
In any case, I don't see anything remotely interesting about them.

--"But trying to convert rock fans into even admitting that rap is music is like asking a straight man to go gay."

Heh. I was kind of wondering if anyone would get around to noting that rap isn't music

Still, although I have the rare decent hip-hop song, I have yet to hear a single good rap song that wasn't a parody.

Two more points, though. I haven't watched MTV since they stopped running Daria (and it's not like they've shown music videos in the last ten years anyway), and rock is not the only other type of music out there.
I've been listening to a lot of classical style pieces lately. There's also jazz, blues, electronica, the list goes on. Rock and pop are highly derivative in the mainstream, but then again, so is rap...

--"That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match."

Not always. When pulled off properly the contrast can work. Of course, doing it properly is always the trick and there don't seem to be that many good lyricists around these days.

Wraith
"People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet."
-- Witold Lutoslawski

[Al B. Sure!]

Wraith:

It's a joke song... damn... it's interesting because it's something odd... how many songs you know where someone's talking about Bugs Bunny and whoever else?


Jimmy:

I asked my boys for some more nas songs... Take a Ride and Day Dreaming Stay Scheming...


thanks

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by Wraith
--"It's just an interesting song because it's about cartoon characters coming to life"

Is that what that was supposed to be about? The author seems to have confused some characters from books and other sources (like Muppets) in there. Although I guess he could just be a Disnified rapper...
In any case, I don't see anything remotely interesting about them.

--"But trying to convert rock fans into even admitting that rap is music is like asking a straight man to go gay."

Heh. I was kind of wondering if anyone would get around to noting that rap isn't music

Still, although I have the rare decent hip-hop song, I have yet to hear a single good rap song that wasn't a parody.

Two more points, though. I haven't watched MTV since they stopped running Daria (and it's not like they've shown music videos in the last ten years anyway), and rock is not the only other type of music out there.
I've been listening to a lot of classical style pieces lately. There's also jazz, blues, electronica, the list goes on. Rock and pop are highly derivative in the mainstream, but then again, so is rap...

--"That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match."

Not always. When pulled off properly the contrast can work. Of course, doing it properly is always the trick and there don't seem to be that many good lyricists around these days.

Wraith
"People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet."
-- Witold Lutoslawski

Thats an ignorant and uninformed opinion. That would be like me judging rock (even though I know you don't like rock) by two Wierd Al songs.

You obviously haven't heard one bit of the kind of rap that Albert and I listen to. And even if you decided to, you obviously have some kind of block in your head thats preventing you from making even a slightly unbiased opinion.

And how many rap songs have you actually listened to? I would guess not many. How much reasearch have you done about its origins and its and its founding artists? I would guess not much there either. See this is the problem. Thats like me saying all classical music is boring after to listening to 5 minutes of beethoven peice.

"People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet."

How true, and how fitting it is for you. You obviously have concentrated one bit of effort into even trying to understand rap.

I suggest you take that block of wood out from between your ears and stop making such dismissive and uninformed opinions... and then try pass it off as "cultured".

[Wraith]

--"it's interesting because it's something odd..."

Bah. You have obviously not been exposed to the realm of anime theme songs if you think that one is odd. It's got absolutely nothing on "Watashi no Tamagoyaki" ("My Omlette").

--"That would be like me judging rock (even though I know you don't like rock)"

See, you're already making assumptions here, and you started off incorrectly. I don't mind rock at all, I just think most mainstream stuff these days is extremely derivative (I believe you've said much the same thing). Doesn't mean there aren't good rock songs, just that the only ones you'll find on the radio won't be recent ones.

--"You obviously haven't heard one bit of the kind of rap that Albert and I listen to."

Here's where you're correct. I've been considering seeing if I could sample some of the ones mentioned, however. Finding people with those kind of CDs around here isn't easy, though.

--"How much reasearch have you done about its origins and its and its founding artists?"

What does this have to do with anything? The quality of the founding artists has nothing to do with the quality of the music made today, nor do its origins mean much of anything after being processed by a RIAA studio.

--"I suggest you take that block of wood out from between your ears and stop making such dismissive and uninformed opinions... and then try pass it off as "cultured"."

Like your entire post, you mean?

Look, don't attempt to insult me just because I don't like a style of music. I'm not particularly into any kind of music. I don't spend a lot of time hunting down any style. Mainstream rap sucks rocks, and that's all there is to that. There probably are some decent indie artists out there, but I have more important things to do than go looking for them.
When I see suggestions of good artists, like in this thread, I do tend to check them out when I can, but it's never a top priority. And when people come off like you just did, I tend to conclude that they're just being pretentious, probably don't have any taste, and not bother at all. Rap is as much a fad with some crowds as Brittney Spears is with others, and I don't really give a damn about following fads.

Wraith
No one can think more highly of your understanding than I do. In my opinion, nature has given you so much that you never find it necessary to use more than half.