What should America do next?

[Sava]

Proportional leadership, definitely ... one of the biggest problems with the US government is the Senate. I understand the argument about its creation in addition to the House of Representatives. But in reality, all that is occuring is that a vastly outnumbered rural conservative population is bogging down many pieces of legislation. If I were to reorganize the govt, I would immediately do away with the Senate. Proportional representation is the only way a system can be truly democratic.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Sava
But in reality, all that is occuring is that a vastly outnumbered rural conservative population is bogging down many pieces of legislation.

How can they be outnumbered when you claim there are more rural conservative senators? I though the majority ruled? (And don't give me this Gore/Bush popular vote crap)

[Sava]

well thrawn, the popular vote of a national election is the perfect indicator. The Senate system is pseudo-democratic. If there's a state with 3 people that elects all Republican leadership, and a state with 30,000,000 people that elects all Democratic leadership, the two states have equal representation, but in terms of overall numbers, its 30,000,000 to 3. That's an extreme use of numbers, but the concept is what's important. It is just a coincidence that right now the House is Republican controlled... the point is not who's in power right now, its the concept that I'm focusing on.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Sava
well thrawn, the popular vote of a national election is the perfect indicator. The Senate system is pseudo-democratic. If there's a state with 3 people that elects all Republican leadership, and a state with 30,000,000 people that elects all Democratic leadership, the two states have equal representation, but in terms of overall numbers, its 30,000,000 to 3. That's an extreme use of numbers, but the concept is what's important. It is just a coincidence that right now the House is Republican controlled... the point is not who's in power right now, its the concept that I'm focusing on.

Tthe state with 3 people must have the third person in the house, because the other 2 are senators.





ACK!

[Odin]

You go Sava, time to kill the Senate and Electoral College. AMENDMENT TIME!!! Who will volenteer to get the petitions going.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not I!

I know the dangers of Democracy.

[Ned]

Given those options, there is only one reasonable choice: nuking Europe.

[David Floyd]

I picked legalizing it, which is closely followed by allowing gay marriages. The rest we should not be doing.

[DinoDoc]

How can you trust the evil Chinazakstanis, DF?!?!

[KaiserIsak]

America is the most democratic society in the world. here we are allowed to be communists, and we are free to use our money to what we want (no communist sh*t taxes like in europe).
Really, the United States was truly a great nation when it was first independent. For that time, their constitution was very radical and their governement very democratic. Today however, USA is no real democracy. First of all, while not using proportional representation, they are not better then the bolcheviks, who used the same system to "win" the elections early on.

And as long as you have a capitalistic society, there can be no true democracy, because the people with money can buy themselves to so much power they want/or have money to. And i´ve heard that the point with the democracy is equal power to all.
It is also not very democratic the way the presidentidal eections are held in the US. Can you be a president if you are poor?

[Lemmy]

Originally posted by KaiserIsak
America is the most democratic society in the world. here we are allowed to be communists, and we are free to use our money to what we want (no communist sh*t taxes like in europe).
Really, the United States was truly a great nation when it was first independent. For that time, their constitution was very radical and their governement very democratic. Today however, USA is no real democracy. First of all, while not using proportional representation, they are not better then the bolcheviks, who used the same system to "win" the elections early on.

And as long as you have a capitalistic society, there can be no true democracy, because the people with money can buy themselves to so much power they want/or have money to. And i´ve heard that the point with the democracy is equal power to all.
It is also not very democratic the way the presidentidal eections are held in the US. Can you be a president if you are poor?

Am i the only one who is confused by this?
America is the most democratic society.
Europe isn't as democratic, it's too communistic.
Today the US is no real democracy.
Capitalism stands in the way of true democracy.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Sava
well thrawn, the popular vote of a national election is the perfect indicator. The Senate system is pseudo-democratic. If there's a state with 3 people that elects all Republican leadership, and a state with 30,000,000 people that elects all Democratic leadership, the two states have equal representation, but in terms of overall numbers, its 30,000,000 to 3. That's an extreme use of numbers, but the concept is what's important. It is just a coincidence that right now the House is Republican controlled... the point is not who's in power right now, its the concept that I'm focusing on.

The only problem is that if your senate was proportional as well as the House of Representatives, you would quickly end up with a situation where some 30-40 states would feel irrelevant to the process. This feeds feelings of alienation. As it is now, the senator for Maine or Rhode Island can exert some influence for their constituents. I don't necessarily see that as a terrible thing but it does lead to an ongoing situation where a minority of the population elect a majority of the Senate.

I guess it all depends if you place any value on having some form of effective regional representation. If the Senate were going to be purely based on population, you may as well just abolish it since in theory it should just mirror the House

[David Floyd]

Why does everyone seem to assume that Democracy is a good thing? Are you parroting your high school civics course, or what? It just seems like, that for such a flawed system, democracy has so many supporters.

[Wernazuma III]

Proportionate representation, even though I watched "Bowling for Columbine" yesterday and lost the last spark of hope for America.

[Zkribbler]

Whoops, Sava and Odin! Time to brush up on Article V:

Article V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.