Why the US is violent place to live in?

[Docfeelgood]

Onership of a gun takes great resposability.
Just like owning a car.

Bet more people drive reckless than shoot guns reckless

[Kontiki]

I'd agree in large part with the lack of social services, but I think there is something else that Moore totally failed to address and/or got completely worng in Bowling for Columbine - the fundamental difference in attitudes between most Americans and people elsewhere (note I said most, there are clearly exceptions on both sides). America is a much more individualistic and greed driven society than much of the rest of the developed world. By this, I mean the highest priority in the US has been and is "how can I get the most for myself (or my family, whatever)". The US has this ingrained in their culture, education, constitution, everything. It's all about individual rights and liberties. Now, that's not to say that it's necessarily a bad thing, just that it's often taken to the extreme. And, along with this, often comes (rightly or wrongly) a certain measure of fear and paranoia that others will try to take what you have.

Personally, I think this explains alot about the rates of violence in the US. Inner city violence, while undoubtably linked to poverty and a lack of social services, is also fuelled by the fact that the greatest goal one can aspire to is personal wealth and power. The lure of criminal activity in these situations is so great because one can make more money and fame (infamy, really) at a much faster rate than attempting "honest" work.

This is also where, IMO, Moore was completely off in the movie. Sure, Germany, Japan, Britain et al have "violent" pasts, but much of this violence was institutionalized - ie. at a state level. Wars waged by governments between countries is not the same thing as internal violence. Hell, no one (or few, anyway) thinks that the US is a violent society because of the wars in which they have been involved. The fact is, in many other countries, there's much more of a feeling of a collective purpose. Again, though, I feel the need to state that we're not talking polar opposites here, and of course there are exceptions on both sides. It's just that, in general, the US leans further towards the supremacy of the individual.

[Pekka]

Kontiki, that was covered too.. when they interviewed those Canadian kids. They made comparisons like 'Canada has lots of guns, yet low killing rate'..

[FemmeAdonis]

doc...I wasnt saying gun owners are irresponsible....

I just thinking OWNING a gun is irresponsible in itself.....there really isnt any reason to have one, unless you're a cop..in the military...etc...

feel me?

[Wraith]

--"So what is it about your culture, that makes the US many times more violent than other countries (not including 3rd would etc countries)? You gave no reasons? "

You're right, I didn't. I'm no criminologist or sociologist, and I don't feel like giving lame, pat, oversimplified answers to extremely complex questions.

--"The only thing I see different with the US and other countries, is that other countries have more strict gun control..."

Thank you for proving my often-ignored point above.

Quite simply, you can't blame it on guns unless you ascribe to the "they exude an aura of evil" argument. Even excluding all the gun-related numbers the US is significantly more violent than other countries. This makes it seem obvious, to me anyway, that guns are at most a symptom but cannot be a cause.
And any international numbers comaprison is a shaky basis for establishing correlation, much less causation. There's just way too many variable to be accounted for, and I have yet to see a single one that attempts to control for even a significant majority of them.
Just as a for instance, Japan has much, much stricter gun control laws than the US, but much higher suicide rates. By your reasoning, gun control causes suicide, which is quite obviously not true.

--"They just kill each other."

This happens in the US as well. A large portion of our crime is related to drugs and/or gangs.

--"And the owner of a gun is responsible, and doesn't open the door with gun in his hand and knees shaking."

You know, I'm getting really tired of your condesending "every gun owner is a coward" line.

Wraith
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke

[korn469]

Pekka et al

check out this site

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

The drug market is a major contributor to the Nation's homicide rate. Indeed, the peak in homicides during the mid-1980's was directly related to the saturation of urban areas with the crack cocaine drug trade. Methamphetamine -- more powerful, more addictive, and easier to produce than crack cocaine -- is becoming a major drug of choice in urban, suburban, and rural communities. If the methamphetamine trade results in drug wars on the same scale as those of the 1980's, it is possible that homicide rates will begin to climb once more, as drug dealers are among those most likely to carry weapons.21

[FemmeAdonis]

You know, I'm getting really tired of your condesending "every gun owner is a coward" line.

I take it you're a gun owner..?










guns are a cowards way of dealing with conflict though.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

And the drugs war adds the fuel onto the fire.

[lightblue]

Originally posted by korn469
Pekka et al

check out this site

http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

Hmm, the EU has serious drug problems too though. The support network might be better though, and as such addicts won't have to resort to violence. I think most gun crime in Britain is drug related (some might be people smuggling), largely between different groups of people trying to dominate the market. This does not explain why the homicide rate is so much higher in the US though, unless you take the avalaibilty issue into account.

I think the US it is far more "socially acceptable" to actually own and use a gun, whereas here you'd in general be looked at as if you were some kind of dangerous idiot.

[Pekka]

Originally posted by Wraith

--"The only thing I see different with the US and other countries, is that other countries have more strict gun control..."

Thank you for proving my often-ignored point above.

Quite simply, you can't blame it on guns unless you ascribe to the "they exude an aura of evil" argument. Even excluding all the gun-related numbers the US is significantly more violent than other countries. This makes it seem obvious, to me anyway, that guns are at most a symptom but cannot be a cause.
And any international numbers comaprison is a shaky basis for establishing correlation, much less causation. There's just way too many variable to be accounted for, and I have yet to see a single one that attempts to control for even a significant majority of them.
Just as a for instance, Japan has much, much stricter gun control laws than the US, but much higher suicide rates. By your reasoning, gun control causes suicide, which is quite obviously not true.

--"They just kill each other."

This happens in the US as well. A large portion of our crime is related to drugs and/or gangs.

--"And the owner of a gun is responsible, and doesn't open the door with gun in his hand and knees shaking."

You know, I'm getting really tired of your condesending "every gun owner is a coward" line.

Wraith
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke

I think the guns are not the primary reason of violence, there are people holding the guns.. and the pull the trigger. I meant to discuss about why they do that, are so violent.. not so much about gun control, but I failed a bit. But I agree with you, they are symptoms, not the cause.

Not all gun owners are cowards.. but most of the people own guns because of possible attack? If so.. then they're afraid of being attacked? That doesn't mean they're cowards, just that they're scared of attackers. Right? And lots of shootings happen because someone got too scared and didn't have the 'courage' to not pull the trigger in hostile or threatning situation.

Wouldn't maze do the job, or pepper spray and a baseball bat? If someone breaks into your house with gun pointed to you, you're pretty much dead anyway? And if you get to surprise the robber, then a nice swing to the head with baseball bat would also do the job?
I don't mean to ***** about this, I'd much rather have a gun in this situation too, than pepper spray. I didn't mean to say that gun owners are cowards.
But it takes more courage not to own a gun .

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kontiki, that was covered too.. when they interviewed those Canadian kids. They made comparisons like 'Canada has lots of guns, yet low killing rate'..

The individualistic aspect of US culture wasn't covered at all in the movie. When Moore interviewed the kids in Sarnia (IIRC), the point was made that Canada has more social services and, in a more general sense, that the US is a more violent society. That's a given, but the kids certainly didn't give any reasons why that would be.

And for the record, yes we have lots of private guns in Canada, but not even close to the same amount or at the same per capita rate as the US does. However, I'm not arguing that the number of guns in the US is in any way solely responsible for the number of homicides. I think it is a contributing factor in some regard, but hardly addresses the whole issue.

[korn469]

lightblue

but like ramo said, there are more non gun murders in the US than all types of murders in the far majority of EU nations, so we can completely rule out guns from this argument, because even if guns didn't exist at all in the US, we'd still lead in murders

the thing is much of the gun violence and gun related crime is connected with the war on drugs

[FemmeAdonis]

arent more people killed in car accidents than by guns?

BAN CARS!!!!! BAN BAN BAN!!!!!

woop woop!

[FemmeAdonis]

or is that tobacoo?

[MikeH]

You can't take the kids to school in a 357 Magnum