The bankruptcy of Creationists' probability argument

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Originally posted by monkspider
But it is irrelevant. All people will one day realize God, even UR and Carl Sagan.

You'd think that if there was a God, Carl Sagan would know by now

[Ari Rahikkala]

Originally posted by monkspider
I have always maintained that there is a great deal of evidence in the world that seems to point toward the direction of God's existence. But it is irrelevant. All people will one day realize God, even UR and Carl Sagan. He will be quite a bit different than what the outspoken fundamentalists had led them to believe, however.

You know, I don't have the slightest idea of what you actually mean by this, but I like your way of thinking...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ari Rahikkala
You know, I don't have the slightest idea of what you actually mean by this, but I like your way of thinking...

Monkie is more of a mystic than a Christian, you can tell by the way he writes.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Here in lies a problem which I deem to be the conflict between science and Christianity. If God intervenes so much, how can one tell what is natural and what is not?

I have a hard time accepting a God's interaction with the world after a creation event- it defies scientific reasoning and logic. But then, I also have a hard time accepting the concept of free will (to me I think it scientifically and logically impossible). Given that the latter appears to be a false conclusion as it is at odds with experience I conclude that the former is potentially a false conclusion.


As I am not convinced, I am not too sure of the argument for such a case. The best I can come up with is that if God is so pervasive as to be (in) everything from the subatomic to the laws of nature, then why not be willing to consider the notion that science is always measuring God or His actions, which can in turn be considered natural. Its could be like looking at a human body - some actions are voluntary, others are involuntary. Both are natural - but on empirical evidence would you be able to discern the difference?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by monkspider
I have always maintained that there is a great deal of evidence in the world that seems to point toward the direction of God's existence.

Such as? I can't think of anything that has been produced as evidence of God that hasn't been shown to be either unsubstantiated (Biblical miracles, personal testimony) or scientifically ludicrous.

There is no evidence for God's existence, there is no evidence for his lack of existence.

[Sarxis]

I think the real question is: given infinite time, would this thread spontaneously morph into-

A. A Mountain Troll
B. A Cave Troll
C. A lost and scared Hobbit

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Here in lies a problem which I deem to be the conflict between science and Christianity. If God intervenes so much, how can one tell what is natural and what is not?

I have a hard time accepting a God's interaction with the world after a creation event- it defies scientific reasoning and logic.

My message was a response to your "What if God does certain things often..." which seems to imply an interventionist God. If that is the case, there is no telling when and where God will do that.

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
As I am not convinced, I am not too sure of the argument for such a case. The best I can come up with is that if God is so pervasive as to be (in) everything from the subatomic to the laws of nature, then why not be willing to consider the notion that science is always measuring God or His actions, which can in turn be considered natural.

What if God only changes things around when we are looking? Say, c is actually 700,000,000 m/s but when we measure it God changes it to 300,000,000 m/s? Wouldn't that be a bugger?

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
Both are natural - but on empirical evidence would you be able to discern the difference?

No, we can't tell. My point isn't whether we can tell the difference, but this: With an interventionist God in the picture, science goes out the window, for we can never be sure what we are observing is what actually is happening.

[Dauphin]

My message was a response to your "What if God does certain things often..." which seems to imply an interventionist God. If that is the case, there is no telling when and where God will do that.

What if it is governed by the uncertainty principle?

What if God only changes things around when we are looking? Say, c is actually 700,000,000 m/s but when we measure it God changes it to 300,000,000 m/s? Wouldn't that be a bugger?

Although science suggests such analagous notions elsewhere, you think the concept bizarre?

With an interventionist God in the picture, science goes out the window, for we can never be sure what we are observing is what actually is happening

I don't believe that is necessarily true.

What you are observing is what is actually happening - the laws of nature have not changed. Things happen in a scientifically explicable way but due to a conscious divine effort, rather than random chance.

I think the real question is: given infinite time, would this thread spontaneously morph into-

A. A Mountain Troll
B. A Cave Troll
C. A lost and scared Hobbit

Given enough time, a brick can jump up a flight of stairs, so I think the answer is all of the above.

[mrmitchell]

Couldn't read through the thread, but I will say this:

The universe churns out so much **** that it's an inevitability for life to develop.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by monkspider
I have always maintained that there is a great deal of evidence in the world that seems to point toward the direction of God's existence. But it is irrelevant. All people will one day realize God, even UR and Carl Sagan. He will be quite a bit different than what the outspoken fundamentalists had led them to believe, however.

That kind of thinking is downright wrong. You are not going to enforce your beliefs on other people. I am atheist for a reason. There is a great deal of evidence pointing to the existence of god? Since when? I would like to see this evidence. I am atheist and I believe based upon what my heart says, that there is no god.