Should Turkey Be Allowed To Join EU?

[HershOstropoler]

"Greece was a military dictatorship -- The Colonel's Junta, remember? -- a scant six years before they were admitted to the EU."

In 1981 the military was neither politically nor constitutionally in a similar position as it is in today's Turkey.

"European consumer goods cost a fortune here, because Turkey's allowed to slap on ultra-high tariffs. They would not be able to do that in the EU."

They are not allowed to do this under the customs union.

"Similarly, European business -- especially manufacturers -- have to contend with so much red tape to set up a "foreign" business that many do not bother; that, too, would be different under the EU."

Would be different, but first part of that is covered by the customs union, second it would not or just barely be covered under NAFTA. NAFTA is a simple free trade area with some free capital movement - even present Turkey-EU relations go way beyond that.

http://www.deltur.cec.eu.int/english/ei-gumruk-faq.html

[Bereta_Eder]

Nope, the pararelism of today's Turkey with Greece at the moment of ascession doesn't hold water.

The "democratic defficiencies" of Turkey are deeply ingraned and culturally fueled, whereas the military regime in Greece was an "abnormality" (won't mention "outside influences" here...) that lasted a mere 7 years.

Turkey's democratic defficiency has lasted since its creation in the 18th century.


Unfortunately the economy during the Greek jutan was very powerful. In the 60's economists talked about the "Greek miracle". We were 2nd in GDP growth after Japan in the world...

Comparing Greece's position after it reeled itself out of a dictatorship of a mere 7 years (the shortest compared with other med countries actually) with Turkey's "chronic illness" simply is misleading.

Also bare in mind that Greece was to join the EU in the 60s but the dictatorship put an end to the date we had already agreed.

[Bereta_Eder]

Basically what Hersh said too.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Basically what Hersh said too.

Okay, I'll drop the comparison to Greece; I had a feeling I was going to get my head handed to me on that one.

As for the customs union -- I can't explain it, but I can assure you that something is jacking up the price of European consumer goods in Turkey, so much so that people travel to Bulgaria to buy electroncs -- Bulgaria! I don't think its a collusion among merchants; I do think its government intervention of some sort -- if not tariffs, then some loophole that I still imagine would be closed under the EU. But I am just speculating now. I'll be at a party with some diplomat friends this weekend; maybe I'll get a straight answer from them.

[HershOstropoler]

"can't explain it, but I can assure you that something is jacking up the price of European consumer goods in Turkey"

There are non-tariff trade barriers for sure, lack of competition/collusion in retailing maybe or what else. But what I would suspect might be the Lira having lost 50 % of its value perhabs ?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"can't explain it, but I can assure you that something is jacking up the price of European consumer goods in Turkey"

There are non-tariff trade barriers for sure, lack of competition/collusion in retailing maybe or what else. But what I would suspect might be the Lira having lost 50 % of its value perhabs ?

No, it's not the lira, believe it or not; this was true even before the lira crisis. If it is non-tariff trade barriers, wouldn't those end under EU membership?

[HershOstropoler]

They are illegal already, the enforcement meachanism would be more effective under EU membership though.

One explanation could be that Turkey might still have a sort of luxury tax on those goods.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I have stopped serious comments in this threads as it is useless. Your post is an example of the absurdity. The "cultural" divisions you talk about - anglo-hispanic, anglo-french - you may have realised that the original ones, not the colonial derivatives, ARE in the EU. These are mostly language divisions - if you want a real cultural gap, try the muslim world. If you show me the muslim state/territory the US has successfully integrated, fine, I'll be impressed....

Just you wait and see what we do with Iraq. I'm sure you'll be impressed.

[HershOstropoler]

That will be more Wilson than Truman....

[Heresson]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You could force them to grant independence to Kurdistan and Armenia as a condition of joining. That should cut down on their population somewhat.

I'm touched that You remembered about Armenia.
However, the situation isn't like this. Of 3mln Armenians
living in the territory that was given to them, 1,5 was murdered, and 1,5 was thrown out. There are not many Armenians left there. In fact, much of the territories Kurds claim to are former Armenian ones. There's no question of granting independance to Armenia, because there's no-one there to grant independance to now.
Of course, You could throw out the Turks and Kurds and invite Armenians back, but...
Still, that's a question. Turks never admitted doing anything to Armenians. In fact I heard that in Van, former Armenian capital, there is a museum in which it is said that it were the Armenians to murder the Turks here... Up to today, Turkish attitude is very anti-Armenian. The boarder is closed I think (because Turkey plays on their brotherly Azerbaygan side in their conflict),
the holocaust of Armenians isn't mentioned no-where...
You don't need no big research to see the hostility towards Armenians. In library of turkology in my orientalistics, there are quite some works about Armenians like "Armenian lie" etc. My (very pro-Turkish, Muslim) friend told me that in the official net site of Turkey, there are only three parts in English. About some main political and economical stuff - and about Armenians... Some time ago Armenian parliament issued
a plea to the Turkish one in which it resigned of any territorial claims in exchange for admitting what happened. i think there was no response.
I claim that EU should force out some change of politics (this would be very very hard and perhaps improbable)
in politics here. When it comes to the territory, there's
no bigger possibility of any changes today. Perhaps except for one. Ani, one of ancient Armenian capitals that are today in Turkey, is located just over Armenian boarder. There were propositions to exchange it for some other ground. Ani has no meaning to the Turks or Kurds... But it is on UNESCO list and it may be a big tourist attaraction... I don't know...

Except for that, Turkey is in very very very bad economical situation and it isn't fully democratical.
On the other hand, democratisation, even such, should be supported. The question is will the neverending growth of Turkish population (from 12mln at the start of last century to about 60 now) end after entrance to UE?
And is it, or isn't that a threat...?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The reason Europe doesn't want them is there are too many Turks, who they fear would be able to move and live anywhere in the EU, taking good jobs at lower pay from decent Christian white folks (never mind that Turks are white).

The sings say:

_Armenian Genocide: 1905-1910

_Slaughters of Asia Minor Greeks: 1920-1922

_"Sneak" Neutrality: 1940-1945

_Invasion of Cyprus: 1974

_Slaughters of Kurds: 1996-2000

_ "White prison Cells": 1999

_ Imia (Aegean) provocation: 1996


And the carricature of the Turk says: "Can't you give us a better date"? (for EU ascession talks).





Anyway, just a pointer



BTW the propositions of the 15 EU states in the Copenhagen Summit were 3:


1) The Scandinavian proposition: Turkey gets no special treatment. When and if it fulfills the criteria for talks, then the talks can start.

2) The German-French Axis proposition (backed by Greece): The Commission will review in December 2004 if Turkey fulfills the criteria to start talks. If it does, talks can start.

3) The UK-Italian proposition (backed by the US): EU starts ascession talks with Turkey now.


#2 gathered the most support and passed.

[Bereta_Eder]

By Scandinavian proposition I mean Denmark, Sweden and Finland.

[Pekka]

number 2 was passed? I think that's ok and fair. Set some goals to Turkey and promise them date if it succeeds. However I think some problems can not be wiped out so fast, but we will see.. maybe they can give it a good start (talking about human rights here).. and if it genuinely is rooting it out, then sure.. why not. Turkey does bring lots of new potential to EU.

[Pekka]

number 1 and 2 are basically same, but number 2 gives a certain date for next chance to start? But it's pretty much the same.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Pekka
number 1 and 2 are basically same, but number 2 gives a certain date for next chance to start? But it's pretty much the same.

It depends on how you define "fulfill the criteria." Technically, #1 & 3 are the same -- Turkey has fulfilled the Copenhagen criteria by passing all the requisite laws last summer, and thus should have been given a start date. What remains to be seen,however, is whether and to what extent these laws will be implemented and enforced. The EU is frankly right to be suspicious; there's a history of Turkey ignoring its own laws, especially when those laws are reformist in nature. Thus the Franco-German proposal, which passed. But, having passed the EU legal package as requested (and, as the legal history of the Turkish Republic goes, this was probably the most significant event since the creation of the first constitution), Turks nevertheless feel that they've been screwed. Personally, I think the EU's reasoning is justifiable, but procedurally I still think they jerked Turkey around on this.