Should Turkey Be Allowed To Join EU?

[Drake Tungsten]

Many Europeans are opposed to Turkey's entrance into the EU for the same reason that many Americans are opposed to massive illegal immigration from Mexico; they fear being overwhelmed by a mass of people from an alien culture. I think that this is a legitimate concern, but others would qualify it as racism. Which view is right? It's an interesting question that this topic brings up.

BTW, thanks for posting that map, Combat Ingrid. Funniest. Map. Ever. Kudos to the great Paul Hanson for his excellent work.

[Wernazuma III]

Do you really want the Iraq to be a border-nation of the EU? 'Nuff said.

[Sandman]

Turkey should join the EU just as soon as possible.

We've been stringing them along for decades, unless we show willingness, then there will be a backlash.

Settling the Cyprus question is a worthy goal in itself.

It will spread democracy and tolerance throughout the Middle East much better than another bloodbath in Iraq.

It will provide Europe with some much needed young blood.

[DanS]

"Do you really want the Iraq to be a border-nation of the EU?"

YES! ABSOLUTELY!

Don't you?

[Japher]

Many Europeans are opposed to Turkey's entrance into the EU for the same reason that many Americans are opposed to massive illegal immigration from Mexico; they fear being overwhelmed by a mass of people from an alien culture.

Que?

I am a Californian, and have been all my life. I grew up in with this "alien" culture all around me every day. I am sure all the residents in the other boarder states would concur that it is not the culture we are afraid of.

I like tacos!

What I don't like about illegal migration of mexicans (as well as all other imigrants from "third world" countries) does not stem from their culture. It stems for the wreckless persuit to abuse the systems within America. I love all the culture.

I think NAFTA has been a good first step in an attempt to better Mexicos economy. One day I hope to see Mexican ppl wanting to stay in their country, and maybe even see Americans jumping the boarder the other way.

[Drake Tungsten]

I am sure all the residents in the other boarder states would concur that it is not the culture we are afraid of.

All residents? Can you really speak for every resident in the American border states?

I used the word "many" in my statement for a reason. Not every American feels that way. I wouldn't even go so far as to say most Americans feel that way. But there is a large portion of the US population that is not comfortable with the massive influx of Mexicans, for cultural as well as economic reasons.

[Japher]

Sorry, not all... but I would argue the most part. I do believe most (not all) would concur.

[Japher]

and I am only talking about the cultural influence, not the economic issue. I would say it is the economic issues that is the reason why most do not like the illegal immigrants.

[Drake Tungsten]

How do you explain the resistance to bi-lingual education then? That seems like a cultural issue, not an economic one.

[Japher]

Resistence to bi-lingual education is both a cultrual and economic issue.

ESL is a dominant institution throughout the public schools already, form elementry school through college. The financial requirements for these schools (already over crowded and under funded as is) to offer two of every class, one in english and one in spanish, would be drastic. It would also sprout demands from other immigrated cultures to have the classes taught in their language.

A majority of state and governmental documents, with the intention of being presented to the public, are already presented in several language. At a cost, I am sure, is being passed on to the tax payers, and not the illegal immigrants, or legal immigrants soaking up welfare.

Also, the reason for American education is to prepare the student to become an effective part of society. Not their society, but American society. Since a large portion of buisness conducted within the US is conducted in English it would behoove the student to learn that language.

Heck, bi-lingual employees will always get the edge over an equally qualified applicant who speaks only one language.

[GePap]

Anatolia has always been a central feature of Europe. The separation of Anatolia from "europe" is an invention of the last 500 years.

Turkey will one day be part of the EU: probably before Russia, as Russia is too vast, and unlikely to want to loose its complete independence. BUt Turkey is not ready. Its economy is poor, so it would create problems for how EU money is transfered around (A state like Poland, with less han half the people and far richer by itself has caused some consternation, since most EU money goes to agriculture). Its treatment of Kurds and other ethnic minorities is also underpar, and there are issues of corruption, and the role of the Military in political affairs which all need to be worked out before it could ever join.

The holiuer than thou attitude against the EU form the US is laughable. We have nothing to be holier than the EU about, except maybe farm subsides, and even there is it a stretch.

[Japher]

I agree with GePap on the Turkey debate. Yet, their desire to change should, in some way, be rewarded.

[Drake Tungsten]

Also, the reason for American education is to prepare the student to become an effective part of society. Not their society, but American society. Since a large portion of buisness conducted within the US is conducted in English it would behoove the student to learn that language.

This is the main issue with bi-lingual education, IMO, and it is a cultural one. In order to become an effective member of American society, you must assimilate into American society by learning our language and our culture. The main resistance to this assimilation seems to be coming from Mexican immigrants, which is causing a backlash against them from many Americans. Many Americans don't approve of immigrants who seemingly refuse to assimilate into our society and culture.

There are certainly economic reasons to oppose bi-lingual education, but at its heart I think that it is a cultural issue. Many Americans expect immigrants to make an effort to learn our language and become part of our culture. Bi-lingual education seems to go against this and that is why many Americans oppose it.

[Japher]

Drake:

You have a point, but...

American Culture is a blend of other cultures. To some extent assimilation is required by all walks of life. The same could be said if say, a mid-westerner moved to somewhere like San Diago. It is a different place with a different society. One in which there is a strong Mexican presence.

When a two cultures merge, the result is something different, but in America, neither culture is completely destroyed.

For example:

I go to a Mexican restaurant in the US/Cali. The cooks and waiters, most of the behind the scenes people speak to each other in Spanish/Mexican. They speak to their customers in English and they serve Mexican food, as well as a select number of "American" dishes, ussually found on the kids menu.

I go to a Mexican restaurant in Mexico. Everyone speaks Spanish to everyone, and good luck finding a Hamburger on the menu.

There is a difference between adjusting and assimilating. One does not need to ditch their culture in order to survive in America, but yes they will have to adapt to the way things are.

If it is Mexican culture to sit on their hands and be good for nothings, then I can see how one could say that it is Mexican culture that is wrong with Mexican Illegal imigration. Yet, all the Mexicans I have know have been some of the smartest, hardest working people I have ever met. Thus, I would still have to say that it is not the Mexican culture that is a soar issue, but the economic impact that is the issue, and in some cases this impact can be drawn to cultural issues.

[Drake Tungsten]

American Culture is a blend of other cultures. To some extent assimilation is required by all walks of life. The same could be said if say, a mid-westerner moved to somewhere like San Diago. It is a different place with a different society. One in which there is a strong Mexican presence.

When a two cultures merge, the result is something different, but in America, neither culture is completely destroyed.

Very true. I'm not concerned with immigration as long as the migrants eventually assimilate into American culture. And you are right in saying that the immigrants will introduce new elements to American culture as they assimilate. This is natural and has been going on since the earliest days of the Republic. I have no problem with this.

My concern is that the number of Mexican immigrants is becoming so large that it is becoming harder and harder to assimilate them into American society. With the huge numbers of immigrants and the high concentration of these immigrants in the Southwest, it is becoming possible for immigrants to come into the U.S. and avoid assimilation into our culture.

For example, there are some places in the US where it is possible to live your whole life without learning English. Areas like these are almost completely divorced from the predominant American culture, which concerns me. I don't want to see a shadow culture develop in the US; such a development could lead to all kinds of trouble.

The basic point is that many people dislike immigrants who refuse to assimilate into the predominant culture. To get back on-topic, I can see why many Europeans would not want the unrestricted immigration from Turkey that would come along with Turkish EU membership. The Turks have proved to be very resistant to assimilation in the past, and European societies aren't as effective at assimilating immigrants as America is. Cultural issues are definitely involved in the resistance to Turkish EU membership, as are political and economic concerns.